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PE for blind people


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#1 pscEx

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:06 PM

Short explanation of the issue:

 

The PE wich can be used by blind people, must contain:

  • An audio driver working in the current hardware
  • A screen reader like NVDA

Seems to be easy, but there is an issue:

When during boot, the audio driver is installed, sometimes Billy the Door has some concerns, and asks whether this driver should be installed inspite of missing author certification or whatelse.

 

For a non-blind user that is no issue. He sees Billy's popup and clicks on "Yes"

 

Because the screen reader is not installed yet, the blind user does not hear Billy's question, and after a while he thinks that something hangs.

His usual (and logical) reaction is to restart the PE:

Same game again ...

 

To first install the screen reader, and then install the audio driver, would not help.

When the screen reader is started without a valid audio driver accessable, it remains silent. And there is no way for blind users to define the audio driver for the screen reader later.

 

Maybe in this topic we'll find a working solution ...

 

Peter

 

BTW: I mainly see "visual impaired" in posts, rather than "blind". Is it an aggression when I use "blind" ?



#2 pscEx

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:07 PM

Short tutorial how a blind user builds and runs a Win7PE

There is no way for NVDA to recognise the toolbar buttons e.g. Blue Play Triangle.
Now by a slightly modified WinBuilder.exe, there are some hot keys provided.
All hot keys use as trigger SHIFT ALT

  • P meaning Play: Start the build
  • E meaning Edit: Open the Edit area, where you can change the script source code
  • A meaning Abort: Go back to the main project tree, aborting changes
  • S meaning Save: Go back to the main project tree, after saving the changes
  • T meaning Tools: Open the Tools area
  • X meaning Exit: Go back to the main project tree from Tools area

Build

  • Prepare
    • Download multiPE and unzip it into an empty folder. Recommended is a folder in the root of a drive, e.g. D:\multiPE
    • Create a portable version of your screen reader in a separate folder, e.g. D:\multiPE\PortableNVDA
    • Run the portable version once and set the configuration like you want to have it in the PE
      That also avoids appearing of a welcome screen in the PE
  • Configure and build
    • Make sure that your standard text editor is not open. That would cause unpredictable results.
    • In the project GUI, check the box Screen Reader Support
    • In the project tree, navigate to Core > 6 - Core Apps > Accessibility > myNVDA
    • Click Create in the bottom left of the Script GUI window.
    • A text file appears in your standard text editor
    • Define SourceDir with the directory of an extracted Win7 or XP install CD. If the path contains spaces, enclose in quotes
    • Define Entry1 with the path to the portable screen reader copy.
    • Save and exit the editor. You will get a voice message:
      "Due to source CD change WinBuilder is restarted now. Please restart the build. And then restart the build a second time, as requested."
    • Hit SHIFT ALT P. That will emulate the blue Play button. After about 10 seconds, you will hear a voice message:
      "Due to source CD change the source parameters are refreshed.#$xPlease check the choosen indexes in 'Core\1 - Core Basics\ImageIndexEx.script' and restart the build"
    • Hit SHIFT ALT P again. That will do the build and after about 2 minutes you will run into VirtualBox if it is installed.
  • Create Live CD
    • The ISO %BaseDir%\ISO\multiPE_Win7\multiPE_Win7_S.iso is available.
    • Burn it to CD
    • Boot from CD
      After boot time of about 2 minutes you will hear something. Then hit the Return key. That will choose the correct Audio Endpoint Device index.

For a new build after e.g. adding scripts, from now on you only have to hit SHIFT ALT P

BTW: Some scripts, where a file or directory must be defined, have also the Create button in the left bottom, e.g. Apps > Develop > ProcExp
You also should have a look at Tools > Accessibility.ini



#3 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:25 PM

Maybe (just maybe and IF I get the issue correctly :unsure:) it would be possible to start "early" a AHK (AutoHotKey) or similar program that:

1) detects the window prompting for the "Install this driver even if it is not signed/authenticated/whatever"

2) Simulates the mouse click on the "Yes" button (and or simulates - if needed - a [TAB] keypress to put the "focus" on that button and then simulates a [ENTER] keypress.

 

I remember having solved a similar issue (in this primitive but effective manner) on a displayless/keyboardless machine (a sort of firewall/router made out of a PC) I tested once, cannot remember right now the details (I seems to remember it was a AHK little script but it is possible it was *something else*), but if you can reproduce the problem (and thus know when exactly this happens in the booting sequence) I am sure we can find a way to load *something* before it.

 

:duff:

Wonko


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#4 pscEx

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 02:16 PM

Thanks, Wonko!

 

It took a while before I could try, because I have been rather busy in different items.

After a different actual NVDA discussion disappeared, I had some more time and worked on your suggestion :cheers:

 

Following your idea, I wrote a small application which:

  • Waits in a loop for a window with caption ???
  • If it detects that window,
    • Sends a "TAB" key stroke to the window (to move focus to "Yes, Install"
    • Sends a "RETURN" key sroke to the window (to install the driver)

??? is a little problem. It is language depending.

 

Therefore I defined in the WinBuilder script:

// The unsigned driver dialog has a caption depending on the source CD language.
// We need the caption for the FindWindow() function
// The user may add his language code

[de-DE]
Set,%DriverSigning%,"Windows-Sicherheit",PERMANENT

[EN-US]
Set,%DriverSigning%,"Windows Security",PERMANENT

[process]
If,EXISTSECTION,%ScriptFile%,%DistLang%,Begin
  Run,%ScriptFile%,%DistLang%
  ExtractFile,%ScriptFile%,Folder,WatchUnsigned.exe,%Target_Sys%
End

As to be seen, currently only German and English are supported.

I would be glad, to get other language captions here. Please EXACT caption with correct uppercase / lowercase letters!

 

With English and German the solution works like a charm in ISO CD and UFD.

 

Peter



#5 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 02:38 PM

Which one is it among the two shown here?

http://msdn.microsof...4(v=vs.85).aspx

 

Though I believe the "title" would be the same. :unsure:

 

Here is a French Screenshot:

http://www.autoitscr...-from-checkbox/

 

An engineer/programmer approach :whistling: would be however to find which files (very likely .exe or .dll or similar) contain those strings and "extract" during the build the corresponding text (that will likely be in the same "resource" in the binary) to make a "language independent" script. 

 

Another way may be (if the popup is of the "first kind", i.e. the driver is signed) see here:

http://www.davidegrayson.com/signing/

to get  from the INF file the DriverPackageDisplayName directive

http://msdn.microsof...e/ff547502.aspx

and use it as argument to something *like* the WinActivate function using "WinText" as opposed to "WinTitle":

http://www.autohotke...WinActivate.htm

 

:duff:

Wonko


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#6 pscEx

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 02:43 PM

After the first issue seems to be solved, I would like to introduce issue #2.

 

I hope that I already solved it in an acceptable manner.

 

Fact:

Audio Drivers usually support output to several devices. Standard is a choice of

  • Speaker
  • Head Phone
  • Digital Audio

In a running system the actual output device is stored in the registry.

 

But in a PE (which on every boot is "new") there is no standard output device defined.

Therefore during the boot the PE chooses one of the output devices, IMO rather randomly.

 

As a result:

When the "wrong" output device is choosen, there is no audio output for NVDA.

 

A non-blind user just can open the audio control panel, click onto the valid output device, and immediatelly hears NVDA speaking.

 

And the blind user? How can he use the audio control panel, when NVDA is not hearable? :frusty:

 

Here a first solution:

 

I added a small app "SwitchAud" which can choose the different audio devices.

 

The blind user can use <Windows-Key> R to open the start program dialog

Then he can type either "SwitchAud zero, one, two" (as number).

When he met the actual device, he hears NVDA.

 

I know that this is only a quick and dirty solution, and can be increased.

 

Currently I am working on an app which in a loop switches between the devices, and asks "When you can hear something, hit Enter within two seconds"

But for that I have to install the MS SAPI into the PE, and that will taker some days ...

 

Let's conclude with the statement:

 

The multiPE project version 75 ( to be published next days) will propably allow blind people to build a Win7PE and boot / use it without visual help.

 

Peter



#7 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 02:49 PM

Peter,

I updated my post (cross-posting) have a look at the "WinText" approach (if feasible it would be much matter than adding n translated strings)-

 

:duff:

Wonko 



#8 pscEx

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 02:55 PM

An engineer/programmer approach :whistling: would be however to find which files (very likely .exe or .dll or similar) contain those strings and "extract" during the build the corresponding text (that will likely be in the same "resource" in the binary) to make a "language independent" script. 

Correct! :thumbup:

 

But I postponed (or striked through) this idea previously, because I'm not sure where to find the caption.

Maybe it is inside any setup / install dll, maybe it is a ressource e.g. in shell32.dll.mui. So for the first solution I decided to use this somewhat hardcoded way.

 

Peter

 

BTW: This reply brought me to the intention, to have a look at some special *.mui



#9 pscEx

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 03:02 PM

Peter,

I updated my post (cross-posting) have a look at the "WinText" approach (if feasible it would be much matter than adding n translated strings)-

 

:duff:

Wonko 

I also have written a function FindWindowByExe, but it only can detect windows created by an exe or dll.

 

I currently do not know which exe or dll pops the unsigned dialog up, and when it came from a dll, my program would treat all upcoming windows of this dll.

 

Nevertheless I'll have a deeper look into the WinText area.

 

Peter



#10 pscEx

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 03:32 PM

Wonko the Sane, on 14 Jun 2014 - 4:38 PM, said:snapback.png

An engineer/programmer approach :whistling: would be however to find which files (very likely .exe or .dll or similar) contain those strings and "extract" during the build the corresponding text (that will likely be in the same "resource" in the binary) to make a "language independent" script.

 

BTW: This reply brought me to the intention, to have a look at some special *.mui

 

Thanks again Wonko! :clap:

 

I found it as STRING resource #12707 in shell32.dll.mui

 

Now some time to code getting this string at boot time ... :suda:

 

Peter



#11 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 04:05 PM

Good :), but, still "attaching" the thingy to the actual driver name(s) that cause the prompt might be a good idea, unless, besides the initial "loop" the program is re-launched.

I mean, let's say that two different drivers (for *whatever* reasons) trigger that popup/prompt.

If the NVDA related Audio driver comes first, the little program "intercepts" it and the second driver's prompt will be "read aloud" by NVDA.

BUT if the "other" driver prompt comes first, the program will intercept it fine, and then unload (thinking to have activated that that prompt was the one coming from the Audio driver).

OR you need to have your program running for a given period of time (let's say 5 minutes from start) or you need to find a way to terminate it when (say) the desktop is fully loaded :unsure:

I am not sure about the timings involved, I seem to remember on some installs (which though not really-really the same as a PE) that such prompts can come out even after some time, once fully booted to the desktop.

Or maybe there is some way to detect programmatically (something loosely *like* devcon) if an audio driver is installed (and it is working)?

 

:duff:

Wonko



#12 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 04:20 PM

Currently I am working on an app which in a loop switches between the devices, and asks "When you can hear something, hit Enter within two seconds"

But for that I have to install the MS SAPI into the PE, and that will taker some days ...

Why? :w00t:

 

If all you have to communicate to the user is a single sentence, in this case the message "If you can hear this message, press ENTER within n seconds" (I would have something more for n than just two seconds, 5 seconds "sounds" better to me), you don't need no stinkin' text to speech engine, you need to simply record that sentence and save it as .wav and use it like *any* normal, plain, "windows sound".

 

How do you think PABX messages have worked for years, long before text to speech was avaialble? :unsure:

 

 

:duff:

Wonko



#13 pscEx

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 04:59 PM

you need to simply record that sentence and save it as .wav and use it like *any* normal, plain, "windows sound".

Looks like that once again have to thank you, if that works, an "unlimited thanks"

 

Maybe I'm too unexperienced in the audio area (You know that I did intentionally not include audio in multiPE, because my opinion was "the PE is for rescue, not to hear the latest mp3")

 

I'll try the *.wav

 

Peter

 

Tomorrow ... :cheers:



#14 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:10 PM

I am even less experienced with audio, consider how none of my desktops have a sound card (or if it is integrated in the motherboard is disabled), but I believe that standard windows sounds can be played rather easily also in a PE (meaning that it shouldn't be needed that much added stuff besides the audio driver), and it is more or less documented:

http://reboot.pro/to...o-win7rescuepe/

http://reboot.pro/to...scuepe/?p=99232

http://reboot.pro/to...ge-6#entry64383

 

:duff:

Wonko



#15 pscEx

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:59 AM

Thanks again Wonko! :clap:

 

I found it as STRING resource #12707 in shell32.dll.mui

 

Now some time to code getting this string at boot time ... :suda:

 

Peter

 

Now the new ExtractString.exe application does some work when building the project:

[process]
ExtractFileEx,%ScriptFile%,Folder,WatchUnsigned.exe,%Target_Sys%
// The unsigned driver dialog has a caption depending on the source CD language.
// We need the caption for the FindWindow() function
// This piece of code extracts the code from from shell32.dll.mui
Set,%ExtractExe%,%tools%\ExtractString.exe
Set,%resultIni%,%ProjectTemplates%\result.ini
If,Not,EXISTFILE,%ExtractExe%,ExtractFileEx,%ScriptFile%,Folder,ExtractString.exe,%Tools%
ShellExecute,Hide,%ExtractExe%,"#$q%ShellDLL%#$q 12707 #$q%resultIni%#$q Local Caption"
IniRead,%resultIni%,Local,Caption,%DriverSigning%
Set,%DriverSigning%,%DriverSigning%,PERMANENT

Peter



#16 pscEx

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:36 PM

Why? :w00t:

 

If all you have to communicate to the user is a single sentence, in this case the message "If you can hear this message, press ENTER within n seconds" (I would have something more for n than just two seconds, 5 seconds "sounds" better to me), you don't need no stinkin' text to speech engine, you need to simply record that sentence and save it as .wav and use it like *any* normal, plain, "windows sound".

 

How do you think PABX messages have worked for years, long before text to speech was avaialble? :unsure:

 

 

:duff:

Wonko

Thanks, Wonko! :clap:

 

I added the single sentence as wav, and it works like a charm.

 

Peter :cheers:



#17 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:59 PM

I added the single sentence as wav, and it works like a charm.

Good :).

Now, just for curiosity  (as I won't have any chance to check myself because of the above detailed -intentional - lack of sound in my PC's) how was the original sentence generated?

I mean:

  1. did you read it aloud, recording it :w00t: :ph34r: ;)
  2. did you use the MS text to speech engine to generate it :unsure:
  3. something else :dubbio:

 

IF #2 above, which among the available voices did you use? 

 

It would be interesting to learn from our visually impaired friends which among the freely available SAPI voices they use with NVDA (and why) or if they use some third party voices:

http://community.nvd...iki/ExtraVoices

 

Then, it would be nice if - as a "side" app/option at build time - you could make a quick script/set of instructions to let them choose the voice (i.e. generate their own message with the voice they use normally with NVDA, possibly in the user language, and replace your "base" .wav with a "custom" one).

 

:duff:

Wonko



#18 pscEx

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 04:14 PM

#3 is the answer. I used D-Speech: http://dimio.altervista.org/eng/

The voice is M$ Mary. It is choosen in the D-Speech app, when the wav is generated.

Undocumented right now: The user can generate his own AudioChooser.wav and overwrite that one in %Target_Sys%

Peter

#19 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 05:18 PM

#3 is the answer. I used D-Speech: http://dimio.altervista.org/eng/

 

The voice is M$ Mary. It is choosen in the D-Speech app, when the wav is generated.

 

Undocumented right now: The user can generate his own AudioChooser.wav and overwrite that one tn %Target_Sys%

 

Peter

Very good. :) (though your #3 is actually #2 as D-Speech still uses/is compatible with the MS SAPI 4 and 5)

 

Dimio is an extremely nice guy :thumbsup: and it is good to see that his little apps/tools are useful and used.

 

And I guess that this way (once documented) the "self-generated AudioChooser.wav" will allow anyone to change the voice an language to suit his/her needs.

 

I would say mission accomplished. :thumbup:

 

:duff:

Wonko



#20 pscEx

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 04:57 PM

I would say mission accomplished. :thumbup:

Let me refine: Mission #2 accomplished.

Now to issue #3:

Sometimes inside WinBuilder (or a project) you have to choose a file or directory.

The non-blind user clicks onto the small "folder" button to open the built-in file chooser.

But the blind user does not see that button, and NVDA does not tell him anything about the existence / place of the button.

My brainstorming idea:

Put a text file into the project dir with a content like

[Accessibility]
Source=Q:\CDs Standard\W7_32_DE_ENT_SP1
PortableNVDA=C:\Scratch\NVDA_Port\NVDA2013.3

If that file exists, the project handles the job and makes working with the filechoosers unnecessary.

Any comments / suggestions?

Peter



#21 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 05:41 PM

Well, but till now we were talking of issues in the build (once it was already made), not in the Winbuilder interface when building.

You managed to go OT on your own thread :w00t:.
;)

Seriously, that solution makes little sense, or better it makes a lot of sense for the "main" project :)(as it is "under your control"), but very little for add-ons :( (self standing .scripts for one tool or the other, unless the .script has already been made "compatible" with this feature).

But if there is this issue HOW exactly the visually impaired people managed to ever build a project till now? :dubbio:



It would be maybe easier to do a completely different thing (IF possible, cannot say).

Pre-scan (as part of the "main" accessibility-enabled-project) all the "checked for inclusion .scripts" and *somehow* create on-the-fly a .ini file with all the files required, whenever such a "choose file" or "choose folder" is present in the .script interface.

Then the visually impaired user could "fill the blanks" in the .ini file, or alternatively, propose as many messages of the type:
The .script XY has been checked for inclusion and requires files X and Y.
Please provide the full path to file X. (or "Please type the full path to a directory containing file X")
as files that are needed.

Or alternately (the other way round) give to the user instructions on where to put the needed files.
Something like:
This project build has been started with the enhanced accessibility option ON.
Please wait while the project is scanned for required files.
The .script XY has been checked for inclusion and requires files X and Y.
Please copy the file X to the directory C:\Winbuilder\EA_files\.
(and of course adding that "default" path to the actual .script that requires the file).

This latter approach would be probably easier for the user, but most probably it would create a whole bunch of incompatibilities with existing .scripts.


:duff:
Wonko

#22 pscEx

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 06:14 PM

Wonko, you are a slave-driver :cheers:

 

But your idea makes so much sence for me, that I'm going to try.

 

Peter



#23 pscEx

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 06:18 PM

But if there is this issue HOW exactly the visually impaired people managed to ever build a project till now? :dubbio:

@our blind members: Please give some answers how the choose control is managed in current projets.

Peter

#24 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:35 PM

OT digression inside the spoiler.
Pleas ignore.
Spoiler


#25 pscEx

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:57 PM

BTW: If somebody wants to try the actual develop stage, there is a nightly downloadable as http://multipe.exec-.../multiPE_75.zip

Unzip into an empty directory, recommended is a folder in the drive's root

Define your source CD or source folder resp.
multiPE can process CDs as source, but the build process is much faster, when you once have extracted the CD into a local folder.
You can use an XP or Win7 SP0 / SP1 source. Vista is not implemented.
The language will be of your choice.

In the project's script, check "Screen Reader Support"

In the project tree, at V:\multi Test\Projects\multiPE\Core\6 - Core Apps\Accessibility\myNVDA.script define the path to a portable NVDA version on your host.
You should have run this portable NVDA once before, in order to avoid welcome screens etc.

These three steps have only to be done once. Maybe you ask a non-blind friend for assistance.

Start the build by using the shortcut SHIFT ALT P which virtually clicks the "Blue Play Button"

After a while of system checking you hear a bounch of messages to tell you about "Source CD has been changed" etc.
Maybe it interfers with currently coming NVDA messages.
But the sence is simply: Restart the build by SHIFT ALT P some seconds after this message is done.

After about 2 minutes you will run into VirtualBox if it is installed.
The ISO %BaseDir%\ISO\multiPE_Win7\multiPE_Win7_S.iso will be available to be burned to CD

Peter

BTW2 @Wonko: I do not understand the actual sence in the link you gave.




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