39 replies to this topic

[ispy]

Hi Everyone,

Background Info:
I am what you would call a relative "Noob" to Boot-land & have to confess that I am guilty of causing some mild irratation to some (Senior) members in the way I have posted some topics & questions . In my enthusiasm, I have been a little bit like a "Loose Canon", partly out of ignorance & partly because I am sometimes a little bit Dizzy or as the wife says "Scatty " (going off at a tangent, a newbie characteristic) but I mean no harm or malice by it . I have the greatest respect & sympathy for the members of this web site as I can appreciate their dilema & sometimes frustration. I have to say though without exception I have found you all to be a very helpful & supportive bunch.

My suggestion/point is this:
I'm sure I am not alone in these characteristics & rather than cause grief to the more experienced members, do you think (The Royal "WE") should consider a Noobs/Newbies corner or section where basically they could ask starter or basic questions about Winbuilder or other items for that matter where the rules are a little more relaxed. I am not for one second going to advocate "no rules" as anarchy would prevail & chaos would result e.g. = . I realise the disadvantage of this suggestion is that newbies have a tendancy of asking lots of questions which can be quite time consuming & yes be quite demanding at times.

However, this could be offset maybe with E.G. starter tutorials, information help files & troubleshooting flow diagrams, screen shots/illustrations & "where to" links etc.

Observation:
The spin off benefit to this idea is that "Todays Newbie maybe tomorrows Guru's ", extra pairs of hands (and all that) to maybe help & underpin probably very stretched existing members list. It could potentially set some of the more senior members free to concentrate with a greater emphasis on development & progression of what is I'm sure is going to be a very popular program(s). It has the potential of being an essential, resource, fixit tool-set for everyday users etc.

So with this in mind I am just saying that there is an army of noobs out there & as the title says "They will be coming warts & all" and why not have a forum or place for them to start from? All this I am referring to is possibly future tense but why not plan for the future & maybe start in a small way with a newbies section & see what happens?

Anyway, I have said enough, I will now dismount from my soap box & see what you all think ???

Regards,

ispy

[Brito]

I'd say you got my vote..


Will you also volunteer to reply to all these newbies?

Good post!

[was_jaclaz]

I'm all for it.

It's some time that I advocate for an increasing of:

However, this could be offset maybe with E.G. starter tutorials, information help files & troubleshooting flow diagrams, screen shots/illustrations & "where to" links etc.

jaclaz

[ispy]

Hi Guys,

Many thanks for your support in this concept/idea Gentlemen! Just a little feed back in respect of Nuno Brito's reply

Will you also volunteer to reply to all these newbies?

Nice one, I fell right into that LOL! Without seemingly "Ducking the issue", can I put it like this :

My current situation is that I am under 2 consultants (doctors) with medical problems (Not Mental thank goodness LOL!!!) with a restrictive physical condition. I do not want to go into too much detail as I don't believe this is the place to discuss it really. This is not an excuse in its self but it has proven to be a bit restrictive in the respect it takes me longer to do certain things, so lets just say I am not by any stretch of the imagination "Billy Wizz".

My second point is unfortunately I would have to classify myself as one of those newbies! So it would be a bit like "the Blind Leading the Blind" & I think I would be soon be uncovered as not being competant by way of the replies they would receive, it could lead them down all sorts of blind alleys of confusion?

In a positive way however, I would like to offer any help that I can, but please appreciate these limitations.

Maybe I have been a little ambitious (Bitten off more than I can Chew ) in proposing this if everyone else is rushed off their feet with other priorities. I was thinking more in terms of helping rather than dealing with "all" the noob requests. Your question is very good & relevant however, someone is going to need to answer them .

One question that needs addressing is a plan or framework how everyone see's it progressing e.g. "the big Picture" breaking it down into the various constituent components, because a certain amount of overlapping is bound to occur. I suppose what I am trying to say that there are different levels of novice. Some will quite technically proficient whilst others may less skill, its getting the right balance I suppose.
what do others think?

Perhaps the noobs section in whatever form it takes could be called "Boot-land for Dummies" like the very popular paperback books on sale in the UK. Sorry! I'm rambling again

Regards,

ispy

[was_jaclaz]

You might take note that TWO blind men walking hand in hand along a corridor tend to go straighter that they would if they went each alone, and this way they find doors on BOTH sides of the corridor!

Point is that experienced members tend to give as acquired a lot of "unspoken truths", the fact that they know about that particular topic make them think that all other people know about that and know as much.

So, when we are talking of newbie help, the help of a newbie can contribute to better focus the way the info is given, as much as you need a fool to test a fool-proof application.

A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

jaclaz

[pscEx]

Point is that experienced members tend to give as acquired a lot of "unspoken truths", the fact that they know about that particular topic make them think that all other people know about that and know as much.

Thanks, I feel a bit that you described me

Independent from WinBuilder, I often said that I don't feel as good teacher, because in most things I'm speaking about, I assume that my conversation partner has the same knowledge like me.

Peter

[ispy]

Jaclaz,

Just a quickie,

You might take note that TWO blind men walking hand in hand along a corridor tend to go straighter

Who mentioned anything about a corridor & holding hands LOL!?

By the way I am not laughing at blind people, I have the greatest sympathy & respect for them, rather the context of saying the "blind leading the Blind" perhaps "Headless Chickens" might be more appropriate & respectful analogy!

Regards,

ispy

[ispy]

Hi everyone ,

For the people who do not think it is a good idea to have a newbies section, please also post your reasons. You may have very good, legitimate reasons (& insite that will looked upon surely by everyone as constructive criticism), a chance to have your say! .

E.G.

Do you maybe think the timing is wrong, not now but later maybe or indeed never & reasons why?
Members are already over stretched with present commitments?
It will difficult to administrate or control?
There is no need maybe?
Run it for a trial period, "suck it & see" idea
& many other ideas that I/we are over looking

It is always a good idea to have the +'s & -'s discussed, to formulate ultimately, a well balanced objective decision?

Mucho Regards,

ispy

[was_jaclaz]

Of course no offence of any kind was intended about visually impaired people.

But "headless chickens" ?

Are you implying violence on animals?



jaclaz

[ispy]

OOp's sorry yes I forgot about Animal loving fraternity!

Darn it Jaclaz you've got me running around in ever concentric circles, dodging possible incoming flack. Okay, what about "Random Molecules"LOL!

Regards,

ispy

[was_jaclaz]

I'll settle for "Brownian motion":
http://en.wikipedia....Brownian_motion



jaclaz

[ispy]

Deleted Inappropriate posting, My appologies!

[amalux]

This is a good idea but I have some questions, who is to say what question should go where? Which question is 'only' for newbies and which is for everyone? and won't the questions posted in the 'newbie only' section suffer the lack of input by more advanced members who may be the only ones with the answers needed? How would this work, the more advanced members wouldn't bother to check in on these newbies, letting them prattle on incessantly about newbish nonsense? Wouldn't this put even more 'pressure' on the semi-newbie to not 'bother' the professorial elite in their 'masters lounge' ? I've been thinking about this 'problem' for some time, having felt the awkward discomfort of asking questions that might not warrant a response from the board or worse, evoke annoyance (actually, no response is worse) but this is part of the 'growing up' process here and I'm afraid that making the evolution too 'pain free' might actually stifle the progress. It seems to me it could make more sense to have a 'hands-free' web page devoted to answering all the basic questions, with walk-throughs to get 'em started and easy links to download everything they need. Then when people run into trouble and have to post their question in the forum, it will be easier to isolate the issues having everyone up to speed and starting on the 'same page'. I realize setting up this page would require some work and I'd be happy to help with the projects I'm most familiar with like LiveXP but I don't feel qualified to write walk-throughs for projects I know nothing about; in fact, I'd be the first to visit this site to try and get a better understanding of these unfamiliar projects.

Bottom line, even if all stays the same; 'newbies' should not be afraid to ask honest questions but should be willing to try their best, through trial and error (and Google search), to see if they can figure it out on their own first. The biggest block to learning anything new is the fear of failure. Most of this fear can be eliminated by simply backing up your hard drive first! What do you have to loose then except time? If one way doesn't work, try another and another; one thing is certain, you'll learn something new each time you try and be in a much better position to ask an 'intelligent' question when needed.

[was_jaclaz]

@amalux

Sure!

I guess noone ever bashed a newbie for a "too newbie" question, at the worst we mocked him a bit, but remember Rule #12!

So, noone should be afraid of asking.

But still, the attempt to go in one step from a purely empirical approach:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical

If one way doesn't work, try another and another;

corresponding to the "Brownian motion" we were talking about,
to a heuristic one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic
would certainly reduce the rate of the increase of entropy:
http://en.wikipedia....thermodynamics)

jaclaz

[Moon Goon]

Nuno has created (along with our help) a very helpful, tolerant message board. Boot methods and the other stuff that is discussed here is for the technically inclined. "n00bs" in our circle are already pretty darn competent. I think the various topic sections and people here have always provided answers. Sometimes I find that my own lack of knowledge prevents me from fully appreciating the answers I receive but this is natural. I've never felt any n00b resentment or elitist snobbery. We're all n00bs in some respect so we respect our fellow n00bs. I say continue as we are.

[ispy]

Hi all ,

Passing thought for the day!

Context:
Setting aside Boot-Land for just a few seconds, I would just like to ask everyone a basic retorical Question?

hypothetical scenario:
If you wanted to say learn about a new, fairly complex piece of software, (& you are unfamiliar with it) or say learn a new programming language (Maybe these examples are a bit extreme but I think you will get the point) which area of the above respective web-sites would you 1st look.....

I rest my case!

Yours respectfully,

ispy

[Moon Goon]

hypothetical scenario:
If you wanted to say learn about a new, fairly complex piece of software, (& you are unfamiliar with it) or say learn a new programming language (Maybe these examples are a bit extreme but I think you will get the point) which area of the above respective web-sites would you 1st look.....

1. Read available documentation.
2. Google for web-sites related to product.
3. Read/Post on forums related to product.
4. Experiment by using product.
5. Rinse and repeat.

Nothing wrong with a Basic Questions section (although it can become a bother if the mods constantly have to move topics around if deemed "not advanced" or "not basic"). I think another forum I used to frequent has these sections:

Tutorials and Examples
This forum is for good, clear, concise and efficient tutorials and well documented examples that can be of great use to other users. This forum is for resources answering frequently asked questions, NOT for questions.

Novice and Intermediate Users
This forum is for novice and intermediate users who are making programs with Drag & Drop or are learning coding, or who have any other questions about using the programming language.

Advanced Users Only
This forum is for advanced users who are skilled with scripting, but need suggestions or tips about their existing scripts.

[ispy]

Hi Moon Goon,

NO offence intended!

Gentle advice in respect of my previous message above, I didn't really want anyone to reply to the question above it is really a one way question, something you answer in your own mind ("Retorical"). The point I was trying to make is I personally would look for easy stuff 1st like:

Tutorials and Examples
This forum is for good, clear, concise and efficient tutorials and well documented examples that can be of great use to other users. This forum is for resources answering frequently asked questions.

If this information is easily located (not disfragmentated) new members & visitors alike will easily navigate to the applicable section without hopefully unknowingly breaching any of the rules. Its really a question of ergonomics and classification of available information & at the same time avoiding falling into the trap of "Us & Them" if possible.

I have to confess that when first arriving at Boot-Land (& from a newbies perspective) I struggled a bit finding out how things should be run, however that could just be me!

Please believe that my intention is not to "Rock the Boat" or cause any problems & I appreciate the standpoint you are coming from Moon. I am NOT advocating a complete re-hash (Far from it) of Boot-Land merely a tweak if that is the right term to use, to make Boot-Land more user friendly from a "newbies" & visitors perspective. I personally, am advocating, start very small & as the demand grows, adapt to meet those needs, others may see it differently.

It may be the case that other more pressing priorities need looking at in preferance to this suggestion & e.g. Now may not be the time. It may also be the case with presant resources that an open discussion forum for Newbies is not applicable or there is no demand for it. In that case, leave it until the demand arises, and address it again in the future, if required. But as the sun sets, tomorrow beckons nothing stays the same, whether we like it or not we all have evolve and adapt as they say!

Discussion & healthy debate are always advantageous & I could be very wrong about a newbies/starters resource area & the questions and answer section. By the way I like a lot of the comments that Amalux & Moon have made they are encouraging to read!

Mucho Regards All,

ispy

[amalux]

Hi Moon Goon,

Gentle advice in respect of my previous message above, I didn't really want anyone to reply to the question above it is really a one way question, something you answer in your own mind ("Retorical"). The point I was trying to make is I personally would look for easy stuff 1st like:

If this information is easily located (not disfragmentated) new members & visitors alike will easily navigate to the applicable section without hopefully unknowingly breaching any of the rules. Its really a question of ergonomics and classification of available information & at the same time avoiding falling into the trap of "Us & Them" if possible.

I have to confess that when first arriving at Boot-Land (& from a newbies perspective) I struggled a bit finding out how things should be run, however that could just be me!

Please believe that my intention is not to "Rock the Boat" or cause any problems & I appreciate the standpoint you are coming from Moon. I am NOT advocating a complete re-hash (Far from it) of Boot-Land merely a tweak if that is the right term to use, to make Boot-Land more user friendly from a "newbies" & visitors perspective. I personally, am advocating, start very small & as the demand grows, adapt to meet those needs, others may see it differently.

It may be the case that other more pressing priorities need looking at in preferance to this suggestion & e.g. Now may not be the time. It may also be the case with presant resources that an open discussion forum for Newbies is not applicable or there is no demand for it. In that case, leave it until the demand arises, and address it again in the future, if required. But as the sun sets, tomorrow beckons nothing stays the same, whether we like it or not we all have evolve and adapt as they say!

Discussion & healthy debate are always advantageous & I could be very wrong about a newbies/starters resource area & the questions and answer section. By the way I like a lot of the comments that Amalux & Moon have made they are encouraging to read!

Mucho Regards All,

ispy

OK, now you've done it! you convinced me; a newbie section with start-up tutorials, walk-throughs, links etc. does sound like a good idea, no, a great idea! My only real concerns were/are, further 'fragmentation' of the site; it already takes me too long to go through all the sections and sometimes I get lost The other night, after several hours looking around, I ended up here somehow and became a bit disoriented but, seriously, it would be great to have a section to post walk-throughs, tips & tricks, ideas etc. without feeling the pressure/fear of disappointing the 'ascended masters' Thanks ispy for your fresh thinking on this and for your determination to get us to re-think the status quo.

[Moon Goon]

No worries, mate!

The intent of words can get obscured on the Internets. I'm not reacting or flaming or trolling - just rambling

The more I think of it, the more a "Novice and Intermediate Users" section sound good. A specific place for newbies and "advanced" users to meet.

The only thing "advanced" about me is the way my back aches and my feeble hearing so I'd probably be hanging around such a section frequently

[pscEx]

Now I feel the necessarity to post here too.
BTW: My vote has been one of the first ones and has been 'no'

Let me explain:
Any issue / question coming up can be

• a 'stupid' question of a newbie
• a 'stupid' question of an experienced member
  (See below, I'm sure that questions are never stupid)
• a sophisticated question of a newbie
• a sophisticated question of an experienced user

Why should a newbie put his question in a forum where propably the users do not have much more experience than himself?

The only recommandation I have:

Let's assume (what happens rather often) that the newbie puts a question neglecting every (not forum's but common) rules by writing something like: 'I got an error. Why?'
Then I personally sometimes are short before becoming angry when explaining for the 123... time that in order to help we need something like a log file and / or the detailled error message etc.
Same when I explain for the 456... time that one should never start with a 'complete' project, or how to build a minimum nativeEx based project
(I think it is similar with VistaPE, but that's outside my knowledge)

Would be nice if also a (bit more experienced) newbie tells this facts to the brand new newbie.

Peter

[amalux]

Now I feel the necessarity to post here too.
BTW: My vote has been one of the first ones and has been 'no'

Let me explain:
Any issue / question coming up can be

• a 'stupid' question of a newbie
• a 'stupid' question' of an experienced member
  (See below, I'm sure that questions are never stupid)
• a sophisticated question of a newbie
• a sophisticated question of an experienced user

Why should a newbie put his question in a forum where propably the users do not have much more experience than himself?

The only recommandation I have:

Let's assume (what happens rather often) that the newbie puts a question neglecting every (not forum's but common) rules by writing something like: 'I got an error. Why?'
Then I personally sometimes are short before becoming angry when explaining for the 123... time that in order to help we need something like a log file and / or the detailled error message etc.
Same when I explain for the 456... time that one should never start with a 'complete' project, or how to build a minimum nativeEx based project
(I think it is similar with VistaPE, but that's outside my knowledge)

Would be nice if also a (bit more experienced) newbie tells this facts to the brand new newbie.

Peter

I agree completely Peter, these were and still are my concerns about the proposed 'change' but wouldn't it be nice, instead of having to explain for the 789th time these simple rules/steps, you/we could simply point them to a page that explained all these 'newbie rules' with simple (maybe interactive) walk-throughs that got the neophyte to a certain 'minimum working level' with a basic project? This is not to take away from your 'steps to a successful nativeEx build' but these really seem more like chapter headings to the true newbie, they need to be filled out with full explanations and step by step (baby steps) direction (screen shots really help the newbie here). I'm thinking I'll just put together a little web-page as an example of what I'm talking about and see if it actually helps anyone (I honestly don't know if anything will) I still remember those awkward first steps and hopefully can translate that into a useful guide. This could take some time as I am a neophyte, myself, at 'web publishing' . I'll need some direction from Nuno on what is acceptable here and how to upload/publish the page once I get it together (I'll be using FrontPage). Let me know what you think or

[Brito]

I'm always here to help with whatever needed but on this case instead of making static pages wouldn't it be preferable to use our own wiki?

http://www.boot-land.net/wiki

One other thought is using the actual wikipedia as host for placing these "newbie" informations since I've seen a lot of people pointing to:

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/WinBuilder
http://wikipedia.org...mming_paradigms


On either case, everyone would have the opportunity to post the information they consider important from the perspective of someone that is just starting to use this sort of things and needs very clear and informative topics.


---

Amalux: Try out Kompozer - it's free and handy to create pages as well.

btw, I'll start editing some of these wiki pages right away.

[ispy]

Deleted Inappropriate posting, Sorry!

[ispy]

Deleted Inappropriate posting, Sorry!