57 replies to this topic

[maanu]

hi there Shao ,

since you encourage people to explain the issues in their OWN thread , so for your information and easynes i am creating this topic ,

issue is ,

i used wimb's tool and made a xp img . now when i try to load it from within internal hdd , it WORKS ok ,

i directly map it and do not map the image into memory .



but when i copied the image to my usb hdd , and after booting from it using grub4dos , i tried to do the
same , it produced the BSOD 0x7B , while the WINVBLOCK driver was ALIVE .


i have used latest grub4dos from chenall's page
i have used latest winvblock release from 2 days before you updated.


the same setup works OK when used from internal hdd .



thanks for your time .

[Sha0]

...but when i copied the image to my usb hdd , and after booting from it using grub4dos , i tried to do the
same , it produced the BSOD 0x7B , while the WINVBLOCK driver was ALIVE ...

I would suggest that all of the devices along the path to the USB disk are either not installed, do not have CriticalDeviceDatabase entries to automatically install them, or their drivers are not set to boot-start. In the example picture below, each of these devices must have its driver(s) set to boot-start, and the devices must either be installed, or need to have CDDB associations so that they will install during the boot process.

• Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller : PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2836 : usbehci.sys, usbhub.sys, usbport.sys
• USB Root Hub : USB\ROOT_HUB20 : usbd.sys, usbhub.sys
• USB Mass Storage Device : USB\VID_xxxx&PID_yyyy : usbstor.sys

[agni]

Please read this post
http://reboot.pro/81...post__p__119893

[wimb]

but when i copied the image to my usb hdd , and after booting from it using grub4dos , i tried to do the
same , it produced the BSOD 0x7B , while the WINVBLOCK driver was ALIVE .

Could it be that your USB harddisk is unknown in the registry of the XP Image file.

Before you create the Image:
- you have to connect your USB harddisk in the running XP that you want to image so that registry is updated
- then reboot your XP with USB harddisk still connected
- then Shutdown and reboot with other OS e.g. PE
- then create XP Image file of the non running XP

and follow the link given by agni

In case of restore to partition then IMG_XP_Restore.exe would take care of it,
but now using WinVBlock as FILEDISK driver on USB, you need to make manual correction for USB boot services.

In future I will make appropriate changes in IMG_XP to support WinVBlock driver.
For now you must take care of that manually.

[maanu]

i seriously appologise on my negligence ,

i knew this fact , that i need to set the start time at 0 plus usbbootwatcher in order to boot ANY full xp from usb .

but i forgot . now it boots OK...


thanks agni , shao and Wimb ,

@ wimb

can you include the option of " install usbboot watcher " in your tool somewhere so that some other foolish user can overcome this thing by default ???

just a suggestion .


also , everyone , one more thing.

in order to boot the same img on multiple computers , do i need to add " Multiple hal entries " ?

or what settings will most probably work ??

like in the following post# 289

http://reboot.pro/81...893#entry119893


thanks ..

[maanu]

also wimb .


tell me how i can manually add the 1st option of " img xp update "

" set intelppm service manual -start=3 required for AMD64 ""


i am asking this because i will not use your tool to make changes save ./

[Sha0]

...in order to boot the same img on multiple computers , do i need to add " Multiple hal entries " ? ...

You need to use an appropriate HAL and kernel for each of your hardware platforms. I find a BOOT.INI menu to be handy: http://www.etherboot...t_winnt_sanboot (the server currently appears to be offline )

[Wonko the Sane]

A suitable BOOT.INI for experimenting can be found here:
http://www.msfn.org/...ive/page__st__8
http://www.911cd.net...37


Wonko

[maanu]

thanks i have found it

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=23553

[maanu]

p.s , i have another thing popping in my mind ,


lets suppose i want to boot my xp img on a computer which needs SATA driver and my xp img does not have it ,

can i load F6 floppy image way to prepare a floppy img of the driver files , and then boot from the img ,

will the boot entry will be something like ,

map --mem /F6.IMG (fd0)
map /XPRAM.img (hd0)
map --hook
chainloader (hd0,0)/ntldr


will this work or the driver SHOULD be injected into IMG file by driver injection from within windows ?

[Sha0]

...lets suppose i want to boot my xp img on a computer which needs SATA driver and my xp img does not have it ,

can i load F6 floppy image way to prepare a floppy img of the driver files , and then boot from the img ,...

An already-installed (NTLDR-booted) Windows XP/2003 doesn't use F6 floppies. A Windows XP/2003 installation (SETUPLDR-booted) uses F6 floppies. Your sample menu.lst shows NTLDR. You must thus inject the SATA drivers and CriticalDeviceDatabase entries into the image.

[maanu]

hmmm , thanks for the answer Shao .

on a side note , you mentioned earlier that you have a 200+ MB img file of your xp which you boot from pc to pc successfully ,

have you slipstream mass storage and chipset drivers in the INSTALLATION iso from where you installed that xp ?

and i suppose you also used multiple hal entries in order to boot it on multiple computers ????


thanks for your time ,


Regards,
Maanu from Pakistan

[Wonko the Sane]

You must thus inject the SATA drivers and CriticalDeviceDatabase entries into the image.

Wait a minute.

Let's say that I have:

• a "generic/generalized" XP RAM loaded image (booted off a USB stick)
• a computer with a SATA hard disk (and for which controller I have NOT a driver installed in the above image)

Am I correct to say that if I don't want/need to access the HD (let's say that I want to use a friends' machine to copy on the USB stick a few photo's he has on a CD - and that the CDRW drive in the PC is a PATA/IDE/ATAPI one) the XP in RAM will work allright, allowing me to access the USB stick and the CD, and allow me to copy files from the CD to the USB or - viceversa - provided that in my RAM loaded XP I do have, say, IMGBURN - I can burn a CD from it?

The only problem I would have is that the hard disk won't be seen, right?

Now, isn't there a way to install the SATA controller driver to the booted XP without needing a reboot?

Maybe using DEVCON and/or tapinstall or DPINST or the NSIS INSTDRV co-installer?
http://www.msfn.org/...on-for-project/


Wonko

[karyonix]

The only problem I would have is that the hard disk won't be seen, right?

Yes, for Windows XP.
Windows XP can work from RAM or USB without the need for IDE/SATA drive.
However, I think this is not the case for Windows 7. If I remember correctly, it failed to boot from USB or RAM (with Firadisk) when IDE & SATA controller were disabled. I have not tried if WinVBlock can solve this problem.

Now, isn't there a way to install the SATA controller driver to the booted XP without needing a reboot?

Yes, there is.
If you have driver .inf, .sys, .cat files, you can install SATA driver with found new hardware wizard or device manager. There is no need to reboot.

[Wonko the Sane]

Yes, for Windows XP.

That's allright, I am not (yet) on the 7 bandwagon.

Yes, there is.
If you have driver .inf, .sys, .cat files, you can install SATA driver with found new hardware wizard or device manager. There is no need to reboot.

So, I may claim that for the actual use of an OS on USB I personally do/like (mainly imaging/fixing/etc. - without need for anything "fancy" like high screen resolution, multimedia use or gaming, nor connections to network and the like) it would be preferrable a "bare" image with - stored in a directory on the USB device - the instll files for the mass storage drivers?
(as opposed to wimb's approach of the "learning" and "ever growing image")
And there is no actual *need* to inject the drivers to the offline image?

As I see it allows for making a smaller image, capable on booting (faster) on lower specs/older PC's....
and after all the time actually taken to install a driver should not be that much.


Wonko

[sambul61]

In maanu's G4D menu example, he didn't boot OS to RAM, hence Sha0 is correct. Another option would be to run XP installer to add the driver.

SATA drivers don't take huge space, and adding them after XP starts may require reboot to access the drives.

[Sha0]

...have you slipstream mass storage and chipset drivers in the INSTALLATION iso from where you installed that xp ?

There wasn't really a need. I originally installed the [stripped-down] XP to 1 GB, then compressed the filesystem, then used a partitioning tool to shrink the partition as small as it would get. Since it's so small, 256 MB RAM is enough. As I booted it on various models, I installed the storage adapters and wired NICs for those models, then re-captured the live (running) image (just as wimb does).

and i suppose you also used multiple hal entries in order to boot it on multiple computers ????...

Absolutely. I use a BOOT.INI with a variety of options. I also use the /SOS switch. If a system hangs at, let's say, Mup.sys, I then try a different HAL. Then I track which models I've booted in a text file in the image, along with the HAL + kernel combo that worked, storage adapter PCI IDs, wired NIC PCI IDs.

That's allright, I am not (yet) on the 7 bandwagon.

Cool.

So, I may claim that...it would be preferrable a "bare" image with - stored in a directory on the USB device - the instll files for the mass storage drivers?

Sure. You just have the "hassle" of installing them. If it's no hassle, it's no hassle.

...And there is no actual *need* to inject the drivers to the offline image?...

No need for storage adapter drivers beyond Firadisk or WinVBlock for a RAM disk-booted image. But sector-mapped disk-booted is a different story.

[Wonko the Sane]

In maanu's G4D menu example, he didn't boot OS to RAM, hence Sha0 is correct. Another option would be to run XP installer to add the driver.

SATA drivers don't take huge space, and adding them after XP starts may require reboot to access the drives.

Well, as I see it Sha0 is right because he is right, not hence maanu didn't boot form RAM.

The general idea (maybe not fully expressed) was to have a single image that could be booted BOTH with RAM and with direct mapping.

SATA drivers don't take huge space, and adding them after XP starts may require reboot to access the drives.

AFAIK Wimb's approach loads (and adds to the image) ALL drivers, not just mass storage ones, the image actually grows.

And Sha0, which, as seen above, is right just said that a reboot is not necessary in the scenario depicted...

No need for storage adapter drivers beyond Firadisk or WinVBlock for a RAM disk-booted image. But sector-mapped disk-booted is a different story.

This is the part I don't understand.
If the image is on a USB stick (or HD) and USB drivers are available and thus the USB device is normally seen and accessible from the booted image, WHERE is the problem?
(still in my hypothetical "no-need-to-access-internal-HD" scenario)




Wonko

[Sha0]

And Sha0, which, as seen above, is right just said that a reboot is not necessary in the scenario depicted...

Actually, karyonix said it, and karyonix is right because he's right, too. But seriously, I've done all sorts of crazy things without rebooting, such as I've used Dell's utilities to reconfigure RAID, pulled out RAID drives and put in new ones, re-detected the RAID volumes, etc. All without rebooting and very, very handy.

This is the part I don't understand.
If the image is on a USB stick (or HD) and USB drivers are available and thus the USB device is normally seen and accessible from the booted image, WHERE is the problem?
(still in my hypothetical "no-need-to-access-internal-HD" scenario)

Aha. You are asking about booting as a sector-mapped disk? If so, the USB drivers must be set to boot-start and Windows must know (before 7B-time) how to drive the USB controller(s) on a never-before-seen model. This is achieved via CriticalDeviceDatabase entries. The drivers' being loaded alone is not sufficient. Fortunately, it is easy to inject CDDB entries into an image, and easy to determine what they should be via Hardware Detection Tool.

[sambul61]

MoBo controller chipset must support SATA drive hotswap (Device Manager (drive) Refresh feature) to have such disks accessible without reboot after installing the driver. You won't be able to access newly added IDE disks, or SATA disks in IDE Emu mode without reboot after adding SATA driver. Most currently made chipsets support SATA hotswap feature though, but not the older ones.

Sha0 was correct in the specific scenario maanu posted (and you changed), and not because he is always correct - it would be inhuman to expect this from him (or from you).

[Wonko the Sane]

Actually, karyonix said it, and karyonix is right because he's right, too. But seriously, I've done all sorts of crazy things without rebooting, such as I've used Dell's utilities to reconfigure RAID, pulled out RAID drives and put in new ones, re-detected the RAID volumes, etc. All without rebooting and very, very handy.

Yep, that's what normally is possible, I am happy that you are with me in the no-more-reboots-than-strictly-necessary track.
Sorry for the misattribution, you are BOTH right anyway, and with no connection whatsoever with what maanu was experiencing.

Aha. You are asking about booting as a sector-mapped disk? If so, the USB drivers must be set to boot-start and Windows must know (before 7B-time) how to drive the USB controller(s) on a never-before-seen model. This is achieved via CriticalDeviceDatabase entries. The drivers' being loaded alone is not sufficient. Fortunately, it is easy to inject CDDB entries into an image, and easy to determine what they should be via Hardware Detection Tool.

Yep, but this is the point I have not clear/I am asking a confirmation for: a "normal" "boot full XP from USB" (optionally with the recommended USBbootwatcher service running) already has the needed ones and they should not change from machine to machine...

In case it is needed, HOW do you suggest to inject the drivers and CDDB entries? (I mean which tools/procedures/whatever are involved?)


@Sambul61
Last time I checked SATA drives in IDE emulation were accessible through "Standard PCI Dual IDE", I wouldn't call this a problem.


Wonko

[Sha0]

...and not because he is always correct - it would be inhuman to expect this from him (or from you).

Not sure where "always" came from. Forgetting about hot-swapping drives for just a moment, it's possible to begin to drive an internal HDD (that was physically installed pre-POST) in Windows at a "late" time without rebooting. "Physically installed" versus "Windows-installed" might be part of a communication problem, here. My example of physical RAID disks being added and removed mightn't have helped, but the point was that "Windows-installed" could be done "late" without rebooting.

...Yep, but this is ihe point I have not clear/I am asking a confirmation for a "normal" "boot full XP from USB" (optionally with the recommended USBbootwatcher service running) already has the needed ones and they should not change from machine to machine...

If "needed ones" == "needed drivers", and "needed drivers" includes any possible USB driver along the path to the USB storage, then yes, even that is still not sufficient. Different models will have different PnP IDs for their USB controllers. Windows would actually have to finish booting in order to look at .INF files to install new USB controllers. .INF installation is "late," CDDB associations are "early."

See also here and here.

...In case it is needed, HOW do you suggest to inject the drivers and CDDB entries? (I mean which tools/procedures/whatever are involved?)...

Please see those two posts just linked (hope they might help).

[sambul61]

@Sambul61
Last time I checked SATA drives in IDE emulation were accessible through "Standard PCI Dual IDE", I wouldn't call this a problem.

Its interesting you always try to change the subject, or at least modify it, or make less specific and quite different from just discussed when it comes to admit lack of knowledge or attention to detail. Usually you pick a couple of phrases from context, and then play fool using these phrases outside of context. Very skilled... Have you every being wrong about anything?

[wimb]

My idea about Universal image is not to let it grow with all possible drivers,
but to have sufficient drivers available to make it useful for any computer to boot.
That means that my XP Setup source has integrated all Windows Updates and Massstorage DriverPack with TXT-mode enabled.
Also I slipstream the other 4 small DriverPacks - Chipset, Processor, LAN and WLAN Network.
These 4 DriverPacks don't increase the size of the Installed XP but just help to install drivers on the current machine.

After creating XP Image file then on unknown computer XP adjust itselves silently in 3 minutes,
and any missing drivers are easily installed in 2 minutes with DriverForge
by using 2.6 GB folder D on USB-drive containing all extracted DriverPacks.

Then I make it sufficiently Universal by using the created image on some machines having different hardware.
Then I have support for AMD and Intel processor, nVidia and ATI video driver, Realtek Sound, PS2 and USB and Touchpad mouse,
several common LAN and WLAN drivers ..., Desktop and Laptop (may be 5 machines make it already sufficient Universal).

Then my full XP Image file including some small apps and installed Office 2003 (Word + Excel + PowerPoint)
has size of 1.6 GB with NTFS compressed format and with about 350 MB free space.

http://reboot.pro/13...post__p__120249

[sambul61]

It's possible to begin to drive an internal HDD (that was physically installed pre-POST) in Windows at a "late" time without rebooting.

That can be useful. Could you explain, how to make accessible an IDE drive connected to MoBO IDE port after Windows XP has started? Device Manager Refresh doesn't work for me... Or did you mean, it must be present at post, then can be removed and later connected again or substituted? If it can be substituted later, are there any restrictions (same model, size, serial, etc.)?