193 replies to this topic

[homes32]

After playing around with the next generation of winbuilder and following this discussion its time for my feedback!

 

First impression:

 

Obviously alot of work and though has been put into the new version. I appreciate the native handling of .zip, .wim and shortcut files something that has always been an issue in the previous generation...

processing speed is nice and quick. under 1min on my duo core laptop with 8gb ram and SSD! using wim XPRESS compression speed was atrocious though taking 30min to compress a 200mb wim file no wonder LZX wasn't included as a compression option in the default project. it will be interesting to see what build times are like once scripts start being added to make the PE useful.

 

I don't mind the command line myself, but one of the big draws winbuilder had on me over my days working with the bartPE/ubcd4win team was the nice GUI interface for tweaking script settings. the html settings offer some nice flexibility but I believe if the new generation of winbuilder is to become successful its going to need to evolve into something easier for novices to build with. plenty of time for that though...

 

beanshell scripting seems nice at first glance. way more powerful and mostly removing the need for calling cmd line programs or homebrewed batches/autoit scripts to process things the previous generation had issues with.

 

all in all a favorable first impression.... now, on to the suggestions!

 

lack of a proper log file. cmd window output isn't telling much of a story for developers looking to debug a build. this will become an issue in the future.

 

my biggest gripe at the moment is the complete lack of documentation for anything. a wiki should be top priority. even as the engine evolves this will allow us to keep syntax up to date. as of now nobody knows how or why winbuilder works and if anyone is going to start working on new scripts or porting old favorites proper documentation on how winbuilder thinks is a must!

 

my other suggestion is a proper bug tracker/request/roadmap. lets not make the same mistakes as the past and shut the community out of the evolution process. after all we are the ones using and developing projects & scripts for the darn thing and ultimately responsible for its future success/failure. keep us in the loop and able to suggest and track bugs and requests. this will not only encourage interaction between .script and engine developers, but also keep engine developers accountable to the community. I would very much like to avoid past issues where "its my way is the only right way" from people on either side of the fence. proper communication tools are a must and forum discussion only covers part of this process.

 

 

final words. keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to seeing this evolve.

 

-Homes32

[homes32]

Hi peter,

 

A couple things i noticed while experimenting:

 

Issue #1

is there a reason you are not processing shortcut descriptions and instead assuming that the user wants all shortcut descriptions to read "Win7PE plugin". I occasionally like to include useful information in this field on some of my scripts. Would it not make more sense if to process all shortcut options defined by the script/author? I realize i could add the processing in plugin.bsh but it would make more sense for future cross-project comparability to include this functionality by default. especially when this project is likely to be used as a template for future projects.
 
Issue #2

why is winbuilder not recognizing plugins in the download directory unless they start with 3xx-[myName]? I'm assuming these numbers are assigned by the download center, but for developing new plugins this number will be unknown until the finished plugin is uploaded.

 

Issue #3
 

There are two steps to add a plugin to a project.
1. Install it. You already did so.
2. Select it for including in the build: In the GUI type "config win7pe" <return>. Then select it in the formular.

Peter

 

this isn't seriously how plugins are going to work in the future is it? because the way I understand it right now that would break cross project scripting in an instant and basically restrict you from running any plugin the project author deems "unauthorized" without modifying the project itself.

So far trying to make a test plugin it is not being included in the list of plugins using >config win7pe

 

unless I'm missing something big about how plugins are detected and offered for inclusion/exclusion from a project right now it seems that the "allowed" plugins are all hardcoded into settings.html
 

thanks.
Homes32

[pscEx]

#1:

WinBuilder provides the "comment" feature.

I simply missed to implement in Win7PE. I added to my development version, and it will be in the next published Win7PE version.

 

#2 and #3:

That is a current misfeature of the current WinBuilder.

In order to "know" a plugin, it must have been downloaded and installed previously by WinBuilder.

BTW: that is the reason that I e.g. created a download of a (not ready) NVDA plugin.

We are working on an improvement, that a developer can register a plugin which is not coming from the download server.

It will be included in the over-next release.

 

#3:

The downloads directory contains 3 types of subdirectories:

• Projects
• Plugins
• Maintenance like cache

Every project can add every plugin to the build.

Currently it is still done by coding the "add" functionality in the project itself.

In the next WinBuilder release a project can add a plugin by just sending a message with the name of the project to WinBuilder.

 

It will still be necessary to "config" the addition of a plugin to the project.

Only by that can be managed, to add a certain plugin(s) to a particular project(s) only.

 

Peter

[homes32]

#2 and #3:

That is a current misfeature of the current WinBuilder.

In order to "know" a plugin, it must have been downloaded and installed previously by WinBuilder.

BTW: that is the reason that I e.g. created a download of a (not ready) NVDA plugin.

We are working on an improvement, that a developer can register a plugin which is not coming from the download server.

It will be included in the over-next release.

 

#3:

The downloads directory contains 3 types of subdirectories:

• Projects
• Plugins
• Maintenance like cache

Every project can add every plugin to the build.

Currently it is still done by coding the "add" functionality in the project itself.

In the next WinBuilder release a project can add a plugin by just sending a message with the name of the project to WinBuilder.

 

It will still be necessary to "config" the addition of a plugin to the project.

Only by that can be managed, to add a certain plugin(s) to a particular project(s) only.

 

Peter

 

Thank you for the reply.

 

glad to hear this will be fixed. its important for developers and users to add plugins easily and for plugins that are in development as well as for plugins that the author chooses not to make public. The central download center is still a key feature for users but it should be just as easy for someone to drop a plugin folder into the "downloads" directory and have winbuilder recognize without any further action other than to config (via a simple on/off toggle) the project to process the plugin.

 

Homes32

[billonious]

I was to make a custom made winpe3.1, in order to have a rescue disk better than DARTs (lack of shell, etc). I though "lets run the new winbuilder 2013, it must be faster than the old versions".

 

So, I downloaded it, run it, got this grey soulless command prompt and I though "omg, I downloaded something wrong by mistake". I browsed in downloads page again, downloaded for a second time this ruthless "winbuilder_latest.zip", I read that it is a java-based console and OS indepedent. Console for Winbuilder? "Sadism", I screamed    . Ok, give it a try. I typed "help", as it is the first move when swimming in a command-shell-hell    but got a big epic nothing full of shining none. "OMG, time for reading, I can't stand more reading, but I have to". I pressed my self, browsed again, and  found that  I had to type "auto". Did it, but this bloodthirsty application start downloading a huuuuuugeeeeee iso image in my disk, completely ignoring that such an iso is already found in my disk . Ok, time to sleep,   wake up, make/drink a coffe , have a bath, see what is going on. Still downloading... Thanks god, DSL has came in this miserable piece of earth a long time ago.

 

So,   in the year 2013, you decided  to make a user friendly   application running on console, abandoning all this prehistoric GUIs with all these back wards checkboxes, disgusting menus, confusing dropboxes, and all these buggy options that used to let the (ignorant) user to make his personal miserable configuration messing things up. Also, the use of modified versions of Windows7 is rejected, avoiding bugs. Moreover, the 2.5 Gb downloading will make people to run away from the laptop and go to eat, sleep, work, have a bath, talk to humans , meet friends & see the sunlight. That's good, I have to say. Indeed, it helps socializing . Furthermore, any impoverished user with a miserable slow intenet connection will be pressed to pay for a fast one contributing to the techonogical evolution of his land . That is really good.

 

Still downloading , that is awsome ....

[Brito]

You see? We care about improving your quality of life..

 

Using the same source helps to bring stability into the build process. The UI is actually futuristic. Right now the big thing is this "metro" UI but this is already too mainstream and will soon be phased out by little androids. So, we took things a bit further with a fantastic command line under a platform that won't grow old. In the end, as all UIs get obsolete it will be true that only the command line outlives all new fashion and stubbornly lives present on consoles/boot menus, making the terminal to be futuristic in a weird sense. Other than that, command line makes it easier for invisual users to control winbuilder using a normal keyboard rather than guessing where the buttons are.

 

So, some umcomfort but in the end we're helping more folks out there getting boot disks done.

[Wonko the Sane]

Using the same source helps to bring stability into the build process.

Good morning, Mr. de La Palisse .

 

Just for the record it has also the not so trifling effect of hiding each and every possible erroneously hardcoded or plainly "fixed" path, setting and what not.

 

@billonious

You have both the intelligence and the sense of humour needed to understand the relevance of the paradigm shift, from failing to build (if not after hours and hours of attempts, but hours lightened by the friendly progress bar , showing you how the settings that won't work are doing senseless things that will soon lead to a cryptic stop error)   something you actually  wanted or wished for to succeeding to (quickly and painlessly) build something that you don't actually want or wish for.

An epic achievement, I would say (were I not "the Sane" ).

 

Wonko

[billonious]

I have to confess that (except for the 2.5gb-iso downloading) the new Winbuilder is kung-fu-cking fast & stable.   Now, I have to find how to configure this fast thingy & add custom software.

[Wonko the Sane]

 Now, I have to find how to configure this fast thingy & add custom software.

Yep , that's the tricky part .

You are already past the initial guide:

http://reboot.pro/to...build-a-win7pe/

And will now need to go down this path:

http://reboot.pro/to...extract-syntax/

http://reboot.pro/to...t-files-syntax/

http://reboot.pro/to...er-2013-syntax/

 

Wonko

[pscEx]

And this one:

 

http://reboot.pro/to...unctions-syntax

 

Maybe to understand one of possible projects, this link can be helpful:

 

http://winbuilder.ex...in7PE/index.htm

 

Peter

[pscEx]

  Now, I have to find how to configure this fast thingy & add custom software.

 

With the current version only plugins from the reboot.pro download center can be added by command: install <plugin name>.

 

With next publication (which is nearly ready to upload) propably the user can add his own plugins.

 

It depends on the project, "what is how configurable". WinBuilder only provides the methods.

 

For the (currently only) Win7PE project look into the Win7PE doc.

 

Peter

[Brito]

The current edition aims to collect feedback on the basic functionality.

 

The focus is improving the internals of the engine. Given enough time, featuritis will creep to infinite with *any* software until it reaches the level of bloat from the older generation. We'd like to keep wb KISS as long as possible.

 

Thanks.

[Wonko the Sane]

where are the other projects/scripts?

Ask the ??? thousand users of this forum. I (and I think, Nuno, too) deliver ideas and tools, not warehouse packages.

where is the syntax?

An introduction is given here in pinned topics.

how can we develop other projects?

 

Study the Win7PE project as example.

I think that this way is already known for you from the historic WinBuilder (OpenBuilder ??) Version ?? (below 50) "Standard" project.

 

Peter

[pscEx]

Quote

where are the other projects/scripts?

Ask the ??? thousand users of this forum. I (and I think, Nuno, too) deliver ideas and tools, not warehouse packages.

Quote

where is the syntax?

An introduction is given here in pinned topics.

Quote

how can we develop other projects?

 

Study the Win7PE project as example.

I think that this way is already known for you from the historic WinBuilder (OpenBuilder ??) Version ?? (below 50) "Standard" project.

 

Peter

[pscEx]

Hmmm ...

Maybe I by mistake clicked "Edit" ?

 

I'm allowed in this subforum.

 

Peter

[Wonko the Sane]

Well, if you move your post (in reply to my post) from my post , I may be able to re-edit my post so that it contains the contents of my post instead of those of your reply to my post.
You can copy the contents of my your post #88 to your post #89.
 

 

Don't worry, it's not the first time (nor it will be the last one) that someone hits "edit" instead of reply.

However the post was a reply to Nuno's post, more or less as follows.
 

 

We'd like to keep wb KISS as long as possible.

You have it wrong .
The KISS principle applies to doing complex things in an as simple as possible way.
Making simple things in a complex way is foolish.
Making simple things in a simple way is "normality".
 

The current edition aims to collect feedback on the basic functionality.

I can sum up the feedback for you in 6 points:

1. it's ugly (not really an issue IMHO)
2. it's fast (good)
3. it works with the (only available) project built from the (only avaialble/approved) Windows 7 source (but this did not surprise much anyone)
4. where are the other projects/scripts?
5. where is the syntax?
6. how can we develop other projects?

 

Wonko

[Brito]

I can sum up the feedback for you in 6 points

 

Actually, feedback can be resumed to a single point: "it works"

 

The KISS principle applies to doing complex things in an as simple as possible way.

 

This winbuilder follows your definition of KISS. We've made it simple to build complex Windows PE.

 

There is no other builder on Earth that combines such low demands in terms of requirements to operate (no admin rights, no need for Windows), automates the building steps to a single command when desired and delivers a high-quality result in a short amount of time. If you don't consider features like the WIM handling to be complex, then I guess everything is easy for you but it did took us some years of development to make it possible.

 

We are creating a winbuilder for the future. You seem to be wanting everything from the old winbuilder available right now for the new one. Might be that we have that one day, depends quite a lot on volunteering effort just like it happened for the old winbuilder.

[pscEx]

Well, if you move your post (in reply to my post) from my post

 

Done!

 

Peter

[Wonko the Sane]

Actually, feedback can be resumed to a single point: "it works"

 

That's fine with me.

 

So the "feedback collecting" time for the "basic functionalities" (your own words ) can be NOW considered OVER, and I am already in the future, asking - like all the other people - what is beyond CURRENT "basic functionalities" (still your own words ) :

 

• where are the other projects/scripts?
• where is the syntax?
• how can we develop other projects?

The brand new car runs, which is good , can we have now (beside the basic driving instruction to do a lap of the single circuit on which it can be driven at the moment) the formula for it's fuel and access to the service manual or do we have to continue to rely on the single source of both (not producing a particularly large amount of either, be it fuel or service manual pages) and can we start to §@ç#ing drive it on the road or are we forced to continue looping on this same test circuit endlessly?

 

Wonko

[ZEE]

I like the "SAY" command...

 

it's fast (lOl)...

 

[Baylink]

G'day.  WinBuilder (of all kinds and ages) newbie here, coming from a background of UBCD4/5, UBCD4Win through 3.6 and YUMI.

 

[ NOTE: There's an actual setup failure buried at the end of this posting. :-) ]

 

I think I've successfully dug my way through the confusing (total lack of standard) taxonomy of the various objects in this space, and I've grabbed WinBuilder to do some tests.

 

It appears that I'll be able to use it to build ISOs that will be based on Win7, but will do many to most of the same tasks that I used to do with the late, lamented -- and apparently moribund (the forums are 404) -- UBCD4Win, and that will be wonderful.

 

I do have a few points that I'd like to clear up, though.

 

Winbuilder is what I would call a layer 0 program: it runs on a PC to build the ISO from the instructions its given, and a Win7 base, and selected plugins from what I would call layer 2.  You then burn that ISO, or test it in an emulator, or use something like YUMI to put it on a USB stick.

Win7pe, on the other hand, appears to be a layer 1 program: you run it on the PC as well, and it "drives" WinBuilder to make it easier to do the work that WB already knows how to do -- for example, enumerating the repository of available downloadable plugins so you can select them (and, perhaps, save various setups).

Win7pe and WinBuilder also have several 'competitors', which do similar tasks.

 

Do I have that all right so far?  :-)

 

==

 

Assuming so, I come to the actual *question* of my posting:

 

If I use WB or WB/W7pe to build an ISO for my computer diagnostic work:

 

1) When does the version of a program contained in a plugin get 'bound': when the plugin is *created* by someone,

correct?  So whenever I download a named plugin, I will get one which contains the latest version of that program *that someone's already packaged*?

 

2) For programs which use signature files, like AV and Malware scanners: when are the *signature files* 'bound' to the plugin?  When the plugin is packaged by someone?  Or *when I build the ISO by typing AUTO*?  For circumstances -- and their name is legion -- when I have to use the resulting ISO/disc to work on a machine which is not connected to the internet, obviously I'm hoping for the latter.

 

3) For programs which do such scanning, what is the situation concerning online updates (of either signature files or engine versions) when I *am* online?  Do such things generally work as expected?  UBCD4Win was bad about most of these points....

 

I don't at all object to rebuilding my ISOs every month -- or every week -- as long as that's a relatively simple task...

 

===

 

which leads me to my third and final question:

 

Is either WinBuilder proper scriptable (so I can just put all the install commands in a text file and run them every time), or Win7pe capable of saving and reloading "setup files" of all the plugins I want in a specific build, so I can just Load and Build?

 

UBCD4Win was *miserable* on this point: they stored the "is this plugin enabled" flag *inside the plugin directory on the local disk*, so to maintain separate builds, you have to have *a complete copy of the plugin tree*; that way lies madness and sweaty palms, obviously.

 

===

 

Oh, and super-finally :-) -- has anyone tried running WB created ISOs using the YUMI bootable USB drive builder?  It's a bit picky about its ISOs, and UBCD4Win, frex, wouldn't even boot that way...

 

===

 

Oops:  "[INVALID] No project is defined for building".  That's after "install win7pe", both before and after "config win7pe", when I type "auto".  And that string completely fails google.  What's it unhappy about, folks?

 

===

 

Thanks to both of you for all the work I know you've put into building this ecosystem; I absolutely intend to toss some ducats over the fence... as soon as I'm done paying for Christmas presents.  :-)

Edited by Baylink, 22 December 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[Wonko the Sane]

Unfortunately, I am prevented from presenting you the history of the Winbuilder, from which you could have learned something.

However Winbuilder is command interpreter, not entirely unlike batch or Python or Autoit.

Win7PE is a project, i.e. a collection of .scripts collected and assemble to deliver a build, in the case of Win7PE the resulting build is a  PE 3.x, i.e. a PE based on Windows 7 sources.

 

I would like to use this occasion to send to all members my best wishes for Christmas and a Happy New Year , as this will be my last post.

 

Wonko

[Baylink]

Unfortunately, I am prevented from presenting you the history of the Winbuilder, from which you could have learned something.

However Winbuilder is command interpreter, not entirely unlike batch or Python or Autoit.

Win7PE is a project, i.e. a collection of .scripts collected and assemble to deliver a build, in the case of Win7PE the resulting build is a  PE 3.x, i.e. a PE based on Windows 7 sources.

 

I would like to use this occasion to send to all members my best wishes for Christmas and a Happy New Year , as this will be my last post.

 

Wonko

So, in other words, "yes".  Got it.  :-)

We really need to stop calling "something which builds an ISO", "something which drives the thing that builds the ISO", *and* "all the pieces we put into the ISO" *all* "projects".  That's even more unnecessarily confusing than what I gather is called the Billy-Bob discussion, into which I am not delving, here.

No thoughts, though, on "it doesn't build"?

[homes32]

I would like to use this occasion to send to all members my best wishes for Christmas and a Happy New Year , as this will be my last post.

 

Wonko

 

Whhhaaatttt????

Say it ain't so!

[TrungNT_HUST]

Can you help me make one script for firadisk drivers are not