22 replies to this topic

[wendy]

I decided to take a look at windows 3.51. This is one of the older ancesters of Windows 2k/xp etc.

The UI looks very much like Windows 3.1 and DOS. But deep in the heart of this is beating the same VMS core that powers win xp.

Still, the overall install diskette can be trimmed down to 70 MB, but i have also the resource kit (50 MB), and SP5 (27 MB unpacked) on the same cdrom. There's also some kind of post sp5 package, which has updated files to allow it to read/write to fat32, and a few other niceties. There are a few other features for modern iron as well.

There's also Newshell, the experimental "explorer" like interface for Win3x, but this is incredibly buggy. I uninstalled the blighter.

Still. It's a nice OS, and it will dual boot with something like XP.

W

[TheHive]

Thanks for the info. Good read.

[Moon Goon]

I think 3.51 was supposed to be the optimised version of 3.5. I tried it a few times and got nowhere. Poor Internet Explorer 5 crashed endlessly. Disk defragmentation utilities could destroy the filesystem because M$ made slight, undocumented changes to NTFS.

The only way this would be viable is if it could be booted from RAM and work with files on modern NTFS partitions.. seems like an impossible task, but I can dream

[Brito]

Also found the link to the Chicago edition review: http://toastytech.com/guis/chic58.html - this was the ancestor to win9x back in 1993, why have they insisted on Chicago and Windows 95 when there was an NT OS already available?

Wendy, can you post some screenshots - seems a really interesting OS..

[MedEvil]

Also found the link to the Chicago edition review: http://toastytech.com/guis/chic58.html - this was the ancestor to win9x back in 1993, why have they insisted on Chicago and Windows 95 when there was an NT OS already available?

Wendy, can you post some screenshots - seems a really interesting OS..

Because of DOS and Win3.1 compatibility.

[Moon Goon]

Got some screenshots right here:

http://www.guidebook...nshots/winnt351

I remember the betas of Windows 95.. They were MORE STABLE than the finished product. Multitasking was smoother too. Although this could just be my experience *shrugs*

[wendy]

I may well dig around and post screen shots of the OS.

I have some rather interesting patches to it, too. One, for example, allows Win351 to read/write to fat32 partitions, along with the usual fat16 and hpfs partitions. The nr 2 box (where it lives at the mo), has both of these (os2 and win98). It can read upto the 48 bit limit (ie 137 GB), with a suitable fix.

At the moment, i only have 16bit drivers for it (vga), so it's still rather quiet. must hunt down drivers for it.

In the main, i found the raw OS rather interesting.

As with winnt4, one can slipstream odds and ends to allow installation on modern iron. The as-provided kit did this ok, but when i slipped in some updates, eg fastdisk.sys, this became quite elegant.

W

[Brito]

This might sound like a naive question since we're talking about an NT system, but can it run 32bit apps?

[Moon Goon]

This might sound like a naive question since we're talking about an NT system, but can it run 32bit apps?

Wendy probably has a more accurate answer for this, but.. yes and no

It can run apps with a very early subset of Win32 calls. I would guess that any Win32 app that can run on Windows 3.11 with Win32s tacked on can run on NT 3.51. It really is random chance though. Like I mentioned before, IE 5 barely ran

At the time Intel thought that true 32 bit operating systems and software would dominate the world. Alas, M$ proved them wrong with Windows 95, 98 and ME

[wendy]

One must realise that it's not so much '32-bitness', but particular API's that might be supported. No version of Windows supports the 32-bit APIs from either OS/2 or BeOS. Still, Windows 3.51 supports a set of APIs that were used in Windows systems at that time.

Windows 3.1, 3.11, NT 3.1, NT 3.51, NT 4.0 and 95 all appeared before Microsoft discovered the internet, so there's no browser supplied. Many of the 'explorer' intergrations were not present: only NT4 and 95 even featured the explorer interface.

NT 3.51 basically is a composite of Windows 3.1, NT 3.1, and Win-32 addin. In essence, you can run programs that rely on the older Win32 API. The registry exists. but .reg files are not. Use regedt32.exe to read it. Programs that make use of new or redirected APIs in NT4 and later generally don't work.

I tried 4NT 2.52, tcmd32 1.02, winrexx 3.5, and file commander 2.2 on it. All of these worked as expected. I ought try norton commander/win on it too. the latest version of TSE/Win works. On the other hand, some programs that i have in my tweakme directory (autoruns, unknowndevices), did not work.

I have not got a video driver for it as yet, so we're using vga. Such is how it was in Windows...

One notes, that some of the WinXP programs are not even recognised as valid win32 apps by windows 2k.

W

[Brito]

Yes, you've pretty much answered my doubts - thank you!

I was really interested to know if wether the load registry hive API was already added on this window version - and now I think that it might be possible.

Even if not much of the API has been added to run programs, one *could* likely get most programs running under a cygwin environment using wine - or would it even be possible to blend wine files inside the win 3.51 core to provide support for the missing API's ?

[wendy]

I'm pretty sure it already has load-hive capabilities, without having to go via wine dlls.

In essence, you could think of these as the 32-bit versions of the following 16-bit stuff:

Windows 3.0 OS/2 1.3
Windows 3.1 Winnt 3.1
Windows 3.11 Winnt 3.51
Windows 95 Winnt 4
Windows 98 Windows 2000
Windows ME Windows XP.

Just as windows 95 runs a subset of windows 98 stuff, so does Winnt 3.x run a subset of Windows 4 or 2000 or XP stuff. But the NT style registry is there. Just that you can't import registry files in that form. You need to add a couple of DLL files to allow it to read the modern INF format files, too.

It also uses the older style of NTFS, which means that if 3.51 and XP are to be on the same computer, then 3.51 has to be in a FAT partition. This is no great loss: it does not use Long file names much at all.

W

[Brito]

Thanks for the comparation chart - just wish MS would release these OS versions to be freely downloadeable and let us test them..

Wouldn't mind using them for my older machines and perhaps adding some newer updates.

I like this 3.51..

[asiekierka]

Wendy, now it changes.

Windows 1.x/2.x VisiCorp VisiOn.
Windows 3.0 OS/2 1.3
Windows 3.1 Winnt 3.1
Windows 3.11 Winnt 3.1 with fixes (if any)
Windows 3.5 (by me) Winnt 3.51
Windows Chicago build 56 Windows 3.11 + Win32s + Win32c (nonexistent for Windows 3.11. Any programmer willing to do this?).
Windows 95 Winnt 4
Windows 98 Windows 2000
Windows ME Windows XP.
Windows Vista Macintosh and Windows XP mixup.

Somebody has a FULL EXACT list of changes from NT 3.1 to 3.51?

[wendy]

The list i gave is only meant to be some kind of guide. Windows NT 3.51 is still very similar to wfw (either 3,10 or 3,11), with common controls from Win95, and win32 (a downloadable for win3.1x).

One must always remember that the underlying DOS of the NT branch is 10.31 and 10.35 respectively, pretending to be 5.50.

[bearwindows]

I like NT 3.51 and successfully RUN it on my Pentium4 PC.

I also deeply researching NT-family and developing VBEMP video driver for it.
I've also make a "POSTSP5" SuperPack for NT 3.51 (http://bearwindows.b...et/winnt351.htm) & make an updated installation CD containing integrated SP5 and some other drivers, enhancements and updates.

In brief, NT 3.51 when I finally update it (as much as I can),
is about 90% compatible to NT 4.0 but requires less memory and hard disk space.
It also works on really old 80386-based PC's

Many drivers and programs which are made for NT4 worked excellent in NT 3.51 (and NT 3.5) - for example, VIA EIDE driver from "VIA Service Pack", Microsoft office 97, Winamp 5, Opera 5.12, Firefox 1.5.0.x, Seamonkey 1.1.x, Lavalys Everest (before v. 3.0), Far Manager, some display and storage drivers.

Now I researching Windows NT 3.5 (and 3.1).

I've also find a way how to write programs for really old Windows 2.x
using TurboPascal 1.0 (1.5) and modern OpenWatcom compiler. 

And how to write 32-bit programs for Win32s - http://bearwindows.b....net/myproj.htm

I wrote an 'windows explorer clone test program' Explore32 that works on every 32-bit M$ OS including: Windows 95,98,ME,NT35,NT351,NT4,2000,XP,2003,Win32s+Win3x using FreePascal.
Get it here  (CT.EXE) : http://www.navozhdeniye.narod.ru/fpcproj.rar

[Brito]

Very good explorer like file manager - Looks better than the one found on ReactOS by default.

One detail: it asks a lot of questions on startup, but why enumerate the registry?

Also remember back when I first started coding with turbo pascal, can't free pascal be used and still be compatible with win 2x?

Nice app!

[bearwindows]

One detail: it asks a lot of questions on startup, but why enumerate the registry?

I make it only for testing Microsoft Common Controls and other techniques on different windows'es so it has a lot to be done It also runs on Win32s
Now I adapting it to Windows NT 3.5 (NT 3.1).

can't free pascal be used and still be compatible with win 2x?

No! FreePascal not allows to make 16-bit pograms.
Only DOS (prot. mode), 32-bit Windows, OS/2 and others.

To make programs for windows 2.x you may use:
1) Borland Turbo Pascal (TPW) for Windows 1.0 (or 1.5)
2) OpenWatcom C/C++ (www.openwatcom.org) - FREE. (better use this one)

After making a program YOU MUST PATCH IT BY PATCH_NE from
http://bearwindows.b....net/myproj.htm
to correct version numbers and flags in exe-file. If you don't patch it, your program can be run ONLY in Windows 3.0/3.1/3.11

[Brito]

I thought freepascal came from the 16bit world initially, I've looked up to see if it changed but only found these references of changes:
http://community.fre...;forum_id=24109

Never tried TPW, it was too expensive for my pocket at the time but I really wanted to produce exe's for the windows 16 bit platform back at those days.

Nice work with your apps, liked them a lot.

[wendy]

I got a hold of a real win351 of late, with its copious manuals.

None the same, an interesting program that works under win351 is reg.exe from windows nt4 res kit.

This means it should be relatively easy to script changes to the registry, even if it is hard to read.

I have a 3.51 box running at the moment, with a swag of apps running (tcmd32, 4nt, fc2 nc/win 1.x, norton tools, and a few others.) Some just don't work at all, though, but it's quite an interesting system.

[Mr Been]

And how about *NEW* drivers, are you using them in NT 3.51 ?

1) for SATA/IDE = UniATA ( http://alter.org.ua/ - temporary unavailable but I have the latest version = http://www.navozhden...aster_v38c2.rar ) or vendor supplied like VIA's IDE Driver.
2) for Video = VBEMP or vendor supplied drivers.
I've heard that the latest drivers for ATI cards was the drivers for ATI Rage Series, for nVidia - Riva128/128ZX/TNT/TNT2.

Details here: http://www.geocities...ws/winnt351.htm
NEW! About NT 3.1: http://www.geocities...ws/winnt31x.htm
NEW! About NT 3.5: http://www.geocities...ows/winnt35.htm
NEW! DLL Hell: http://www.geocities...ows/dllhell.htm

Thank you

[bearwindows]

And how about *NEW* drivers, are you using them in NT 3.51 ?

1) for SATA/PATA/(E)IDE = Alter Group UniATA ( http://alter.org.ua/ ) or vendor supplied, like VIA's IDE Driver.
2) for Video = VBEMP or vendor supplied drivers ( I've heard that the latest "proprietary" drivers for ATI cards was the drivers for ATI Rage Series, for nVidia - Riva128/128ZX/TNT/TNT2 ) .
3) There are some drivers which are made for Win95/NT4 but also work in NT 3.51 (Network drivers from Windows 95 is NT 3.51 Compatible)

I made a bunch of screenshots related NT 3.51 running new software. Hope it will enjoy you. See attached 351gifpk.rar.

Shot 1: zquake 0.14 (winquake port), SeaMonkey 1.1.10, XP's Remote Desktop Connection.
Shot 2: Far Manager 1.70, FC/W (File Commander for Windows), Windows2000 Terminal Services Client, Drive! HDD Speed test.
Shot 3: Mozilla FireFox 2.0.0.15
Shot 4: SeaMonkey 1.1.10 (large)
Shot 5: Winamp 5.13 (Classic skins only)
Shot 6: Lavalys Everest 2.20 (home edition)
Shot 7: Drivers 1: Intel NDIS3 Proset™ Drivers for 100 mbit PCI-LAN cards
Shot 8: Drivers 2: Working VBEMP and UniATA drivers

I've also have this hotfix for NT 3.51 (EN_US English) - AGP Video Support for Windows NT 3.51 and 4.0 : http://support.microsoft.com/kb/174567

Title: AGP Video Support for Windows NT 3.51 and 4.0



Summary

=========



When you use a video card that has Accelerated Graphic Port (AGP) functionality, opening a command prompt and then maximizing the screen causes the screen to go black. You can recover by pressing ATL+ENTER to make the screen a window.



Manual:



Knowledge Base Article

======================

For the full contents of the article for this hotfix, visit http://www.microsoft.com/kb/ and query the Knowledge Base for the title listed at the top of this document.



(c) 1995-1997 Microsoft Corporation, All Rights Reserved.

(See attached Q174567.rar)

Attached Files

•  351gifpk.rar   475.52KB   1180 downloads
•  Q174567.rar   312.66KB   1374 downloads

[bearwindows]

11.16.2008
[!] NEW Article "Windows NT CreateDesktop() undocumented behaviour" - http://bearwindows.b...winnt351.htm#11
It is about using undocumented functionality of CreateDesktop() function in NT 3.51 and other NT-like operating systems.

xx.03.2009
[!] NEW Article "Windows NT and UDP Sockets Datagram Sizing" about possible problems with UDP messages in Windows NT/2000. http://bearwindows.b...winnt351.htm#15

xx.04.2009
[!] NEW Article "Failure to install printer in Windows NT 3.51" about possible problems with printers in Windows NT 3.51 http://bearwindows.b...winnt351.htm#16
[!] NEW Article "How to install any POSTSCRIPT- or HPGL2-based printer in Windows NT" about insalling new printers with really old Windows NT 3.51 and other OS http://bearwindows.b...winnt351.htm#17

xx.10.2009
[!] NEW Article "SCSIPORT.SYS PCI/PCIe Bus Enumeration Bug in Windows NT" about bus enumeration behaviour in Windows NT http://bearwindows.b...winnt351.htm#18