375 replies to this topic

[Akeo]

Here I faced with a serious dillema: usually the way I select a tool to use time-to-time is by trying how it works. Since I'm severily limted to one (and only ONE) - yes ONLY one - ISO, I need to somehow pick it out of many - without testing, right? Or, do you suggest me to copy fist one thousand of files to my dear Flash, run it once, then wait 20 min until they are all erased (because I don't like that one), then copy another one thousand files to my (now pure) Flash.... and go on, until the very last ISO in your carefully pre-tested list is done, and I finally happy with it - right?

I feel sorry for you... because you are exposing your misunderstanding of how flash actually works.
It usually doesn't matter if you copy a single large file or multiple small ones, since (nearly) the same amount of sectors will be used. In fact, if you format your flash using a 2k cluster size, exactly the same amount of sectors will be used (because ISO9660 uses at least one 2048 bytes sector per file). The wear and tear comes from the sectors used, not the number of files. Ergo, it doesn't matter if you copy ten thousand small files or one ISO that contains ten thousand files, the end result with regards to wear and tear is exactly the same.

Oh, and if you want to displace the debate to the fact that it usually takes more time to copy many small files than a large ISO, and that deletion takes time, remember that I already acknowledged copy time as one of the few advantages I saw in using a method that deals with whole ISO, and remember that when dealing with ISOs, Rufus currently starts by formatting the whole drive, which is very quick (unless you're foolish enough to uncheck quick format) and means you don't have to delete a thing.

What you are trying to perform here has a name: FUD.

So, lets calculate: 5 thousand files droped on the Flash during 3 days being a regular Joe - my Flash is no more, its actually gone

Yes, EXACTLY as it would if you used G4D and copied whole ISOs.

Another Addon: Modern flash media also have circuitry that prevents wear and tear even if you are rewriting the same flash sector over and over => this mean that even in the case of a file system that is using the same sector as directory index, or if we somehow were to write the MBR 10000 times in a row, different physical locations of the flash are actually written each time.

By all means, please keep trying to discredit Rufus, because this is becoming highly entertaining...

[saddlejib]

Everyone here knows that. (sectors and all)
Ask Wonko.
Wherever you reside in the world. You can't beat entertainment.
We all like to talk about common interests,be it,i've got to be careful here, so it's just car's and bike's, makeup, men, women and computers.
Diplomacy rules.

[sambul61]

Akeo,

Why would I need to discredit Rufus? Do I have a competitor in mind - my own program, I want to promote? Name it pls. The problem with your calculus is:

1) it doesn't explain, how to select the right ISO without testing many? Rufus has nothing to do with it - the way some people think does;

2) it doesn't admit, using Grub4DOS I can copy several (in fact many) ISOs only once to the Flash, and then use them any time needed or erase at once. With Rufus I'll need to erase one thousand files and copy another each time, I need to do a different job - as a regular Joe. And then erase another and copy the first thousand back... and go on. Nice understanding of mass user needs...

The Report is over for tonight. Good night...

[Akeo]

1) it doesn't explain, how to select the right ISO without testing many? Rufus has nothing to do with it - the way some people think does;

Because this is an issue that you and only a handful of people are expected to have. As I tried to explain, the vast majority of Rufus users will want to use one ISO, and one ISO only: the one they just downloaded and want to use, but don't want to burn or don't have an optical drive on the target machine to use in.
They won't be running around with a dedicated flash drive full of ISOs to perform different tasks.
For the vast majority of people, USB->ISO will be a rare occurrence, if not one time only (especially if Windows installation media are used. The vast majority of Windows users will have access to one license, so once installed, the ISO will be pretty useless).

2) it doesn't admit, using Grub4DOS I can copy several (in fact many) ISOs only once to the Flash, and then use them any time needed or erase at once.

That's multiboot, and my very first post stated that I had little interest in multiboot for Rufus. When someone starts by saying "If you don't mind, I'd rather not talk about subject X", do you always try to come back to subject X when discussing with them?
"- If you don't mind, my wife has passed away, so I'd appreciate if we could avoid talking about my wife, thanks."
"- So, about your wife..."

With Rufus I'll need to erase one thousand files and copy another each time, I need to do a different job - as a regular Joe.

This is not regular Joe usage. This is your (and a few others, who possibly may account for a large part of reboot.pro members) usage. Deal with it.

[sambul61]

Sorry, we can't avoid talking about anything relevant here especially the topics Reboot members usually discuss. That's how Peer Review usually works - the author wants to avoid talking about anything he knows is definitely weak in his work. But that would be against direct duties of others to show they didn't notice these obvious flaws the author wants to hide, regardless how its being presented - even as accomplishment or a new theory, or something "obvious to everyone". That would work against progress in any matter.

My niece Sallie is an ordinary student. She downloads various files every day, and sadly regularly faces one or another issue with her Netbook, someone has to address. Now its going to be her and of course... Rufus. Still have no idea what ISO suggest her to use once and for all? Please advice..

[Wonko the Sane]

Did I notice a "blush" in one of Wonko's replies or was I mistaken ?

Hard to say whether you noticed it or not , but I can tell you that there is one , in post #89.

It was put there in order to express how Wonko's, as an exception to his habits, did not attentively read the whole thread - due to the unusual amount of words (BTW most probabaly in large part unneeded) that were spent on this thread.

Due to this lack of diligence , it is very possible that the little piece of info he posted had been already given, IF this is the case, Wonko wishes to express his excuses for posting redundant info.


Wonko

[renee]

I have made an ISO from an MSDN distrubution from IMGBURN. The ISO is now on my C: drive. What fornat should I make the recipient DVD for the ISO?

Renee

Edited by renee, 26 February 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[renee]

"@renee

Link for U3 download Installer and uninstaller:"

I guess the old cruzer was defective. I had another.

Renee

[Akeo]

the author wants to avoid talking about anything he knows is definitely weak in his work.

If it satisfies you to consider it that way because you have utterly and repeatedly failed to make a convincing argument of why the masses need multiboot, be my guest.
It's not like I tried to explain to you, over and over, each time you brought the subject to multiboot, why it will be irrelevant for the masses and only the concern of a very selective minority (that seems to take offence when they are being told the world doesn't revolve around them).

Still have no idea what ISO suggest her to use once and for all? Please advice..

How is this my job?

I simply provide means to easily convert ISO to USB. Any ISO (as long as some conditions are met, which most currently available bootable ISOs should meet).
And for what is probably the 4th of 5th time, let me try to explain this to you: very few people need to run around with an USB drive filled with a whole slew of ISOs that they can select at random, "just in case". Instead, most people will use a single ISO to complete a very specific task, and most likely in a one time only manner. If you simply cannot accept this, there's really no point in trying to discuss further.

Depending on the task your niece wants to perform, she will download a specific ISO. What it is depends on the task. If she then wants to perform another task, she may download another ISO. Or do you install Linux and Windows and run recovery tools from the same USB drive at once? If she's running 3 VMs accessing the same USB drive at the same time, she's doing a very specialized task, that hardly anybody else would ever do. I could add support for very specialized tasks in Rufus all day long if I wanted, but I'm smart enough to know that the benefit for the masses in doing that will be minimal, especially if it delays the adding of more wide-reaching features and fixing of bugs.

But oh no, she will have to recreate her USB for each ISO? That's utterly unnacceptable!!!
Sure... It's not like it just takes a couple of clicks with a small and simple tool to do so...

[sambul61]

But oh no, she will have to recreate her USB for each ISO?...
Sure... It's not like it just takes a couple of clicks with a small and simple tool to do so...

To your huge disappointment , I'm no longer interested in this topic. The positions are clear. If you were a 5th-grader offering a little utility like that I would have nothing but the words of encouragement for you - knowing, it will help you to succeed and make the right choices down the road. Since you claim to be an experienced developer and obviously have an agenda, the magnitude of this utility doesn't require such elaborate discussion - in other places it may simply go unnoticed.

Windows is a complex OS with numerous features and programs exposed to users by default. Each of these programs has a number of features. In facts, it looks like endless complexity compare to one click utility you offer. Yet I don't see on MS forums systemic complains that Win 7 is way too complex. Somehow all users regardless of background are able to figure out how to work with it. AND, MS World is one of the most widely used programs despite offering hundreds of features.

People on this planet are used to make conscious choices every day - this is fundamental quality of human beings, even uneducated ones. So your concept that a user would be lost when presented with a choice of 3 ISOs to pick one to boot (that's after selecting these 3 ISOs out of a thousand freely available on the web) is principally flown.

Finally you admitted, today my niece Sallie may use one ISO, and tomorrow another for a different task. That leaves us with gross inefficiency of endlessly erasing and then shortly after adding again the same ISOs to her pure Thumb. More, that leaves her with no chance to learn that her repeatable tasks can be done a lot faster and smarter - without erasing anything and buying new sticks out of the same pocket she pays her Tuition.

And sadly that also concludes our discussion: I would never use your program because I know better. But that's me...

[bblaauw]

To each their own purpose indeed. I think RUFUS will appeal to many people, however it can still be confusing what's supported currently and what's not.

Let's see, supported: single primary partition spanning 100% of the USB flash device's capacity, using following filesystems and operating systems:

FAT:
* No operating system (blank formatted FAT filesystem)
* FreeDOS from internal files
* MSDOS (WinME) from some Windows-dll
* Isolinux derived distributions, mainly Linux distributions (maybe even FreeDOS though I didn't implement much USB-awareness yet). Extracted
* Windows 7
* Bare Syslinux (not yet implemented)
* Other Windows versions (PE primarily, as that loads USB stack early enough)
* Windows 8

NTFS:
* No operating system (blank formatted NTFS filesystem)
* Windows 8 ?
* Isolinux-using distributions? Only syslinux 4.06 implements NTFS (experimental), no Linux distributions yet
* Windows-flavors?

RAW-written:
* Nothing yet, RUFUS doesn't implement a 'dd'-like mechanism as PowerISO does. RUFUS however can restore a raw-written device just fine to full capacity.
* Windows-flavors including PE?
* Isohybrid Linux images
* Floppy disk images?


Is ISO the only option? I suppose RUFUS could work with a copy-mode if you insert a Windows installation DVD, no need for intermediate ISO files as you're extracting anyway.
I've got no idea how tolerating Windows is of partitioned USB sticks as long as first (or all) present filesystem is recognised.

[Akeo]

Somehow all users regardless of background are able to figure out how to work with it.

How I wish that were true! Then I could reduce the time I need to spend on the phone providing first line Windows and OSX support to a few members of my family for fairly basic stuff...

So your concept that a user would be lost when presented with a choice of 3 ISOs to pick one to boot (that's after selecting these 3 ISOs out of a thousand freely available on the web) is principally flown.

This is only one of the reasons I see multiboot as less preferable than single boot. This is also where my experience and yours seem to differ greatly.

Finally you admitted, today my niece Sallie may use one ISO, and tomorrow another for a different task.

If you really want to call that "admitting", sure, why not. Yet you still won't admit that, unlike her uncle, your niece is unlikely to need to keep 3 ISOs at once, especially if she's not an IT student.
If we go with multiboot, which, from what I gather requires maintaining a list of parameters to use for each image, if she wants to use another image tomorrow, then if that image is brand new, she may have to download a new version of Rufus else she may have to figure the boot parameters on her own... I'm sure your niece is smart, but I'd rather save her some time for studying (which she can do while an ISO is being extracted) than learning the intricacies of G4D or downloading a new versions of the same tool.

That leaves us with gross inefficiency

Well I wouldn't mind having a direct chat with Sally to find out if she actually will see it as inefficient, considering the low probability I anticipate of her having to use more than one ISO every few months or so, while on the other hand she will probably want to free up some space on her memory stick for other files, when she doesn't.
If provided with a fair and balance view of the pros and cons of each approach, her answer may very well turn out to be different from the one you'd like.

It's similar to the way you label a poll (cf. VHD poll), really:
"- Would you want a banana?"
"- Sure, why not..."
"- Do you need a banana?"
"- Not really. Besides I prefer apples..."

because I know better.

This is really what you should put forward first, as this is your most insightful statement to date.
Apparently, this is also something that everybody communicating with you needs to be aware of: No matter how much evidence is provided to you that you actually may not, or false statements you issue (such as flash wearing out a lot more quickly when copying many small files), you just happen to know better.

Well, I don't think I'll have much of a problem if you go "know better" in some other threads.

[Akeo]

To each their own purpose indeed. I think RUFUS will appeal to many people, however it can still be confusing what's supported currently and what's not.

Bearing in mind that Rufus is still young and not feature-complete.

FAT:
* No operating system (blank formatted FAT filesystem)
* FreeDOS from internal files

When using the "Rufus (with FreeDOS)" version, which is separate from the regular Rufus version, on account of being larger due to the embedding of the files.
I'm pondering whether I should release a single version with everything, but I'd like to keep it small, and it is possible that I will want to embed support for other files, in which case I would see a large size for what is intended to be kept as a small utility as an annoyance.

* MSDOS (WinME) from some Windows-dll

From the boot floppy image contained in diskcopy.dll

* Isolinux derived distributions, mainly Linux distributions (maybe even FreeDOS though I didn't implement much USB-awareness yet). Extracted

Yup. FreeDOS definitely boots, but I haven't tested install

* Windows 7
* Windows 8

Nope, not with FAT32. The main reason is that one of the Windows preview ISOs contains a file that is larger than 4 GB, which FAT cannot accommodate
Also, when possible, NTFS should be preferred to FAT32, since it offers a few advantages (copy speed, extended labels, etc.) and if the goal is to install Windows, whether the drive is FAT or NTFS shouldn't matter as long as it boots.
This doesn't mean that I'm not going to implement Vista/7/8 support for FAT, but it's low priority for now.

* Other Windows versions (PE primarily, as that loads USB stack early enough)

Not yet implemented yet. For older PE, FAT32 will probably be required.

* Bare Syslinux (not yet implemented)


NTFS:
* No operating system (blank formatted NTFS filesystem)
* Windows 8 ?

Vista, 7 & 8. All have been tested.

* Isolinux-using distributions? Only syslinux 4.06 implements NTFS (experimental), no Linux distributions yet

Noy yet implemented, with a big question mark as to whether it will be useful.

RAW-written:

Not interested, since I don't see much of a demand, unless PE requires it.
If anybody wants that, they will have to create their own version of Rufus (or provide me with a patch, which I may or may not choose to implement on considerations of trying to keep the tool as simple as possible for the masses).

Is ISO the only option? I suppose RUFUS could work with a copy-mode if you insert a Windows installation DVD, no need for intermediate ISO files as you're extracting anyway.

As I stated before in this thread, I rely on libcdio, so I adding physical drive support probably wouldn't be too much trouble.
Yet one of the MANY features I am planning to look into when I have a chance.

I've got no idea how tolerating Windows is of partitioned USB sticks as long as first (or all) present filesystem is recognised.

Something else I am planning to investigate when I start looking into the long standing multiple partitions Enhancement Request.

Please remember, one-man-operation development takes time, so the more feature requests are added, the less they are likely to be processed quickly. And knowing that my development time is also very finite, I may have to make harsh decisions over what to keep and what to drop (floppy support is currently as good as dropped).

[sambul61]

No matter how much evidence is provided to you that you actually may not, or false statements you issue

It looks like you ask me to come back. Of course, Flash will wear out a lot faster when you endlessly save and erase the same extracted ISO contents onto it on regular basis, because most service tasks are indeed repeatable and frequent given youth admiration for new gadgets.

Unfortunately, misleading claims against forum members won't take you far here. Hope, you already found a more comfortable place for your advertising campaign. You shown no evidence at all, only empty words. As said before, there were plenty of smarts before you offering free tools only to say later, a paid version is available, which suddenly implements all niceties stupid users "don't need" in the free one.

For some reason you chosen this multiboot forum to claim the users are stupid, and its members as well. Would you like to add a Poll to this thread, asking stupid users whether they prefer a freedom of dropping a few unchanged ISOs to their Thumb, OR prefer extracting, saving and erasing thousands of files from a single ISO endlessly? If you have "evidence", why you're so afraid to offer the Poll, which questions should exactly reflect nature of this discussion?

[bblaauw]

I hope you visited Akeo's blog then to make up your mind about his developments and experiments, they seem advanced enough to me.
As for Syslinux/Linux stuff on NTFS, that should be possible just fine. To my knowledge the Linux kernel doesn't care about what filesystem it boots from, and following that some initrd and big data file are loaded. Besides, Linux has quite reasonable NTFS support already.
(and might be necessary if files exceed 4GB, unless you want to force ext2/3/4 in Windows).

I'm quite happy with RUFUS as-is already, as FreeDOS has no Windows-compatible SYS tool anyway. Syslinux is the closest available, and your program automates it all. My posts were merely for getting a clear overview of RUFUS' abilities and limitations, and not for requesting additional stuff if that cuts too much into spare/rare development time.

As for internal files, I did mention a request to support floppy image files as source location for finding files.
You could then do a "only copy to USB stick the system files found in the tiny disk image" or a "copy all files found in image". That way you'd keep a small RUFUS and only 1 external file.
The drawback is you're in trouble as soon as a disk image would lack system files. Perhaps your built-in files serve a decent purpose after all, hehe.

The raw-writing is your own decision, indeed it cuts into the ability of "add your own files afterwards" that you advertise for NTFS/FAT formatted USB sticks. An easy-to-recognise format though for Isohybrid: exactly (a multitude of) 1 MB.
As for multibooting, plenty of tools exist. Adding another one may or may not be usefull, author's decision. Either way, RUFUS is perfectly usable for most people's goals.

Finally, I'm not aware of any misleading claims, RUFUS does what it's intended to do. In a perfect world though we'd all be able to use a simple bootloader (or something like ISOstick or Zalman VE-200/300) and only have to add 1 file (an ISO) per additional operating system. Unfortunately things aren't perfect, operating systems inside ISO files aren't fully agnostic of where they're loaded, thus requiring fiddling with grub/syslinux, which might overreach this tool's purposes.

(I'm easy..all I want is a ReactOS LiveCD compressed ISO-file loaded through Syslinux/memdisk..with working keyboard that is)

Edited by bblaauw, 26 February 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[Wonko the Sane]

As for Syslinux/Linux stuff on NTFS, that should be possible just fine. To my knowledge the Linux kernel doesn't care about what filesystem it boots from, and following that some initrd and big data file are loaded. Besides, Linux has quite reasonable NTFS support already.

JFYI, not really-really.
Not all distro's have the "right" kernel seetings, and in any case there would be an isssue with Syslinux/Isolinux, BUT there is now (very recent) EXPERIMENTAL support for NTFS
http://reboot.pro/15086/

(grub4dos has it since quite some time)


Wonko

[Akeo]

sambul61: Brilliant! Let me teach you further then. I must admit that I'm having a lot of fun, so why should I stop...

Again, you are showing a strong lack of understanding as well as knowledge.

Rufus is released under GPLv3 and heavily relies on libraries that are GPL as well. Please see the About box if you want to find out which ones, as there's quite the long list.
While I could decide to change the license for the sections of code I personally wrote, into something proprietary, if I didn't want to be in breach of copyright, I'd have to find proprietary-compatible versions of all these libraries I reuse.
If not, and if I were to create a commercial "advanced" version with extra features, then anybody would have access to its code, since these are the terms of the GPLv3, and could therefore produce free versions that are identical to the commercial one. Gee, I wonder which of free or paying, of the exact same item, people would choose..

If I ever wanted to monetize Rufus, sounds I really shoot myself in the foot there...
You will also notice that there isn't a donation button on my page (but maybe I should set one?).
So I kind of have to wonder what exactly I have to gain in advertising, apart from providing people with a tool that they might find useful...

By all means, please continue trying to discredit Rufus or my intentions, as this is quite fun, and it also gives me an opportunity to set the record straight.

[Akeo]

Not all distro's have the "right" kernel seetings, and in any case there would be an isssue with Syslinux/Isolinux, BUT there is now (very recent) EXPERIMENTAL support for NTFS
http://reboot.pro/15086/

(grub4dos has it since quite some time)

I don't have much of an issue with providing an option to set Syslinux for NTFS, since it shouldn't cost much, but indeed my current concern is that it is likely not to be that useful if the boot process cannot access files later on.
Do you guys know of ISOs or other boot process, apart from the Windows one, that have been confirmed to be NTFS aware (or NTFS agnostic)?

[bblaauw]

That's a catch-22 situation, asking for NTFS-aware Linux distributions when Syslinux doesn't support NTFS yet. As Ubuntu and Mint support being integrated under Windows and its bootmanager, I suppose they're NTFS-aware/agnostic.

[sambul61]

Brilliant! Let me teach you further

What about the Poll - suddenly you lost all the fun of offering it to stupid users? Have even more fun in finding, what stupid users actually want - ask THEM rather then telling your "prophecies" based on "evidence".

Do you need help in formulating the "right" questions?

[Akeo]

As for internal files, I did mention a request to support floppy image files as source location for finding files.

One of my caveats there is that, doing so properly would require .IMZ support, so zip library.
Again, I'd prefer to see requests from users, with some clarifications of their needs for using floppy only, before adding such a feature (or, even better, if such a patch was provided by a third party so that I don't have to do it).

You could then do a "only copy to USB stick the system files found in the tiny disk image" or a "copy all files found in image". That way you'd keep a small RUFUS and only 1 external file.

Well, despite the fact that I provide 2 versions, part of me wants to encourage FreeDOS usage (since its miles above MS-DOS, especially on the localization front), by making it super easy to choose.
The FreeDOS version actually seems quite popular, and is usually ahead of the non FreeDOS one in terms of downloads. I'm not sure having to rely on an external FreeDOS image would be so popular.

And again, I may very well decide that ~400KB should be OK to download for everybody, and switch to a single version.

(I'm easy..all I want is a ReactOS LiveCD compressed ISO-file loaded through Syslinux/memdisk..with working keyboard that is)

I like that idea!

[bblaauw]

Diskette images seem to come in multiple versions:
*uncompressed
* compressed using ZIP format (supported by Memdisk and GRUB)
* compressed using GZIP format (supported by Memdisk and GRUB)
* compressed using 7Zip's LZMA format (nowhere supported yet I guess, maybe only in your own tool?)

Uncompressed would be a start. I don't see much use in the non-FreeDOS RUFUS except for not confusing the user between different versions of DOS.
Perhaps license-technical. Trying to add all sources of software you used on a single disk could become complex.
I shudder at thinking of how large a single ReactOS ISO would be if it had to provide a Live Environment + installer + installation files + build-environment + SVN-client plus corresponding sources for everything. Boring stuff to consider though.

[Akeo]

(...) stupid users (...) stupid users (...)

Very revealing.

As to the poll, it's more complex than it seems, since we need to avoid falling into "Would you like a banana?" fallacy (and if you want to imply that by mentioning banana, I'm implying that users are monkeys, suit yourself, as it isn't the case). Therefore we must make sure polled people understand the choices that are presented to them, with both pros and cons, so that we can clearly identify a need rather than a wish. And this is quite difficult, because if you are dangling the possibility of having something rather than nothing (ability to boot multiple images rather than single), the vast majority will go with the former, even if it turns out they actually have no or little need for it.

To make the analogy a little clearer, consider the following question:
"- I see that you are about to purchase a Swiss army pen-knife. For the same price, would you not rather like a pen-knife with a saw?"
"- A saw? For the same price? Sure! Who knows, if I'm ever stranded in the mountains and need to cut something, this might come handy..."

But out of the people who will take the saw, how many do you think will actually ever need to use it?

[Akeo]

Diskette images seem to come in multiple versions:
*uncompressed
* compressed using ZIP format (supported by Memdisk and GRUB)
* compressed using GZIP format (supported by Memdisk and GRUB)
* compressed using 7Zip's LZMA format (nowhere supported yet I guess, maybe only in your own tool?)

Well, the thing is, I have already integrated 7z compression in another FOSS library of mine, so I could probably reuse some of that work in Rufus. I did consider adding 7z support, at least internally, to reduce the size of the embedded content, but I'm currently using UPX, which is of course a lot simpler and seems to be doing an okay job. As usual, some of my concerns are with limiting the size, complexity and support needs.

Uncompressed would be a start. I don't see much use in the non-FreeDOS RUFUS except for not confusing the user between different versions of DOS.

Small downloads are nice, especially if the anticipated usage is ISO -> USB rather than DOS. But again, I have the door left open on this one.

[sambul61]

But out of the people who will take the saw, how many do you think will actually ever need to use it?

So, what you're trying to do now - substitute actual Poll results with yet another Prophecy? Don't you believe in your Rufus Star, I mean the "evidence"?