73 replies to this topic

[Lancelot]

Midway

2 improvements:
1)
on main screen of LiveXP (script.project) at the bottom there is a checkbox (selected as default)
so when a user [with defination of Peter "EVERY Expert, Standard, or Dummy user"] who knows the meaning of writing iso with imgburn can uncheck the box , so no imgburn script will run and it will be easy for "Advanced" users to uncheck after immediate downloading.
2)
well imagine user is advanced but in a rush , during build when imgburn step comes, a screen comes asking "Do you want to use ImgBurn ISO to burn CD?" , so user clicks no (after 5 seconds building continue with answer assuming yes)

I hope peter like the solution (as usual only hope),
and
I guess medevil like the Midway
and
I wish all others approve.

Please test (minimum download ~15mb)


Happy New Year.

[TheHive]

I like that Idea very much. Easy to disable on first bringing up the project on Winbuilder.

Disabled Burn Option on first Main Screen of Project LiveXP Minimum .



Ran in Qemu


Closed Qemu and Received this message. No Burning was actually done.

[amalux]

Nice job Lancelot! Thanks for this useful option

[pscEx]

This is from a different topic:

I agree and disagree.

I agree that perhaps too many scripts are offered as selected under recommended. These are mainly apps and I have now made some alterations to that effect and uploaded. I checked, but no antivirus comes with recommended, so that's fine.

However, I disagree that drivers should not be offered as recommeded. In my opinion, mass storage drivers should be recommended as they are necessary on a lot of modern systems. Of course, the user has the option to deselect, but they should be offered selected as default. If the end user wants a first trial with bare minimum, then minimal should be chosen. But "recommended" is still the recommended option for LiveXP, where mass storage drivers are the recommendation.

Regards,
Galapo.

But I think that the theme is better handled here.

W/o discussing agreements or disagreements, let me just explain my view.
(Long time ago, when I 'switched' from Reatogo to 'OpenBuilder' following Nuno's invitation, that has been my view)

I find WinBuilder by Google or by recommendation of a friend or ...

I download WinBuilder and try.

If there is the possibility to test in an emulator, I'll do so.

And in the emulator I do NOT need ATA drives for that, I do NOT need a collection of network drives for that (I only need that one which is used in the emulator).

I do NOT need audio drives for that. I only want to SEE, not to HEAR, whether this new WinBuilder program can become interesting for me.

I do NOT need suprefragilisticexpiallegotish video drivers. The emulator just has VGA.

I try:
#1 In the build there only are included the scripts to bring me into a RUNNING qEmu within 2 minutes
#2 The build includes ALL RECOMMENDED scripts. It will bring me into a HANGING qEmu after 15 minutes. (See post #3)
On my question in the forum

[Lancelot]

@Peter:

This is from a different topic:

Reason is, I put reminder for galapo on this "different" topic to make galapo catch the news as i wrote here at post 8

post 3: Ingredient of recommended livexp may be discussed, i took notes of your concern to discuss it later.

And still i dont understand you bother in one topic or another, anyway it is your style.

#2 The build includes ALL RECOMMENDED scripts. It will bring me into a HANGING qEmu after 15 minutes. (See post #3)

AS i wrote on post 8 (my first post after your post 3)

subject 2) ......Script changed and updated.

I dont understand why you still talking about same thing which is fixed 2 hours later after you reported.


And for all other things you wrote, i wrote before at post 8 (after 2 hours)

But reminding you sth; we have minimum option for livexp which have much less SELECTED scripts, very small and quickly buildable.

And Galapo wrote

If the end user wants a first trial with bare minimum, then minimal should be chosen. But "recommended" is still the recommended option for LiveXP, where mass storage drivers are the recommendation.

so i cant still understand your problem!!

Also Now you can download minimum from my signature to give a try, dont hesitate, only 15mb.


@Galapo:
For Midway, maybe minimum option suggested for trial on livexp page
http://winbuilder.ne...oad.php?view.35

Sth like:
Make a fast Trial with "LiveXP minimum" , if you like download "LiveXP Full" or "LiveXP Recomended" which have ultimate features

[Galapo]

And in the emulator I do NOT need ATA drives for that, I do NOT need a collection of network drives for that (I only need that one which is used in the emulator).

I do NOT need audio drives for that. I only want to SEE, not to HEAR, whether this new WinBuilder program can become interesting for me.

I do NOT need suprefragilisticexpiallegotish video drivers. The emulator just has VGA.

But if testing the "recommended" option, then this needs to be tested, as that is what is supplied. What you're suggesting is to disable much of the "recommended" driver scripts and that will not be done as they are the recommendation. That is, for LiveXP it is the recommendation to have those scripts enabled so they will be supplied enabled.

The end user has the option to download "minimal" where such drivers are not selected.

I try:
#1 In the build there only are included the scripts to bring me into a RUNNING qEmu within 2 minutes

Choose "minimal" if that sort of time is desirable.

#2 The build includes ALL RECOMMENDED scripts. It will bring me into a HANGING qEmu after 15 minutes. (See post #3)

Sorry about this, as there was some inconsistency with the server move while I was away. I had updated the qEmu script but hadn't increased the version number but it seems that my change didn't go across or something. Lancelot it seems has remade the alteration so it should be OK now.

Sorry about the disagreement. It seems to me that this is just the difference between nativeEx and LiveXP philosophy. To test "core" choose nativeEx or LiveXP minimal. To test building with drivers and minimum of apps, choose LiveXP recommended. To build with large collection of apps in addition, choose LiveXP complete.

Regards,
Galapo.

[pscEx]

I think that I logically made a mistake when I created this topic.

I created it with of some feeling of 'responsibility', with the conviction in my mind, that during my now 35 years of programming I mostly understood the needs of the end user (and I think, I met it, because the number of complains has been nearly zero).

But that seems to be wrong.

In our world Billy the Door proclaims: "I know better than you, what you want and what you need"

I try to forget my stupid opinion.

BTW: Can somebody explain the 'quoted user' of my first post what he did wrong?
I do not know what he did wrong, because everything is working as intended.

Peter

[Lancelot]

BTW: Can somebody explain the 'quoted user' of my first post what he did wrong?
I do not know what he did wrong, because everything is working as intended.

This is subject 1) , and I already explained you what he did wrong at post 2

I think that I logically made a mistake when I created this topic. ..I created it with of some feeling of 'responsibility'..

I dont agree, Thank you for creating this topic, as you introduced 4 issues on this topic summarizing:
issue 1) simply users can make mistake (read post 2)
issue 2) hwpnp error fixed
issue 3) now we have LiveXP Minimum (~15MB) ( LiveXP-Minimum.zip ) on server for quick trials for purposes described by you
issue 3+1) now we have a 2 additional nice features to disable imgburn at the end of the build which approved

In our world Billy the Door proclaims: "I know better than you, what you want and what you need"

I try to forget my stupid opinion.

Can anyone explain why peter feels like that ?????, sorry for my lack of english but all issues peter warned/reported are responded immediately but what peter wrote means opposite !!!!!!

[pscEx]

Can anyone explain why peter feels like that ?????, sorry for my lack of english but all issues peter warned/reported are responded immediately but what peter wrote means opposite !!!!!!

There seems really to be a lack of (your or my) English
Last trial and last post here:
What I wanted to introduce: Give a project to the 'First dummy user in a fresh downloaded LiveXP' which ends in a visible result after 2 minutes, and not after 15 minutes with hundreds of unused drivers (and in my case with hang of qEmu'
(BTW: If in the mean time the HANG is eliminated, there are still the 15 minutes ...)

Maybe you acccept and change the project
Maybe you do not accept and do not change the project:
No reason for me to discuss furtherl

Peter

[Lancelot]

Give a project to the 'First dummy user in a fresh downloaded LiveXP' which ends in a visible result after 2 minutes, and not after 15 minutes with hundreds of unused drivers

http://livexp.boot-l...eXP-Minimum.zip

[Galapo]

I created it with of some feeling of 'responsibility', with the conviction in my mind, that during my now 35 years of programming I mostly understood the needs of the end user (and I think, I met it, because the number of complains has been nearly zero).

From memory, I recall that there have been far more requests regarding missing mass storage drivers rather than the complaint that they're not needed and make the build process too long.

If they're not desired, then the script(s) need to be deselected or choose LiveXP minimum or another project not supporting sata etc out-of-the-box. The recommended option, though, is for them to be included and as such the script is selected.

Regards,
Galapo.

[TheHive]

I do NOT need audio drives for that. I only want to SEE, not to HEAR, whether this new WinBuilder program can become interesting for me.

Good point of view from the perseption of a new user. And I agree. If a person (Including ouselves) download a new piece of program to test, and if that program does not impress us within a few seconds or a couple of minutes. Do you keep it and work with or do you say "ah! Crapy software and throw it into to the recycling bin".

Make a fast Trial with "LiveXP minimum" , if you like download "LiveXP Full" or "LiveXP Recomended" which have ultimate features

Good options. I think the default download for Winbuilder should be LiveXP minimum. That is for the same reason quoted above. You want to impress the first time user with a fast working Project that will boot up into an emulator. The building of a more XP Full or Recommended comes later when the user has breen impressed by the first initial "Wow! this crap really works moment". lol!

Build the house starting with the basement rather than with the roof! But always have in mind how the roof should be made!

Build and show the first time user downloading Winbuilder and a small LiveXP project that works and the roof or the full XP will be their next choice to building their Live PE.


This topic just reminded me to go to the Bootland downloads section and try to look at if from a first time visitors perspective.
Um! where is the Downloads Options for the Winbuilder.exe.
It seems we just list stuff for Winbuilder, but there is no mention of the Main program to use, which happens to be Winbuilder.

[Galapo]

Good point of view from the perseption of a new user. And I agree. If a person (Including ouselves) download a new piece of program to test, and if that program does not impress us within a few seconds or a couple of minutes. Do you keep it and work with or do you say "ah! Crapy software and throw it into to the recycling bin".

I'm having difficulty recalling any complaints about the building time of LiveXP recommended apart from Peter's, but can think of quite a few regarding missing mass storage drivers.

Audio drivers are not enabled by default, so that's not what is at issue here, it's really the question of having mass storage drivers enabled by default.

I still do not see a reason not to recommend via script selection the installation of mass storage drivers under recommended. "Minimum" should be taken as exactly that -- minumum. It may or may not give an end user what they want, just a system that will boot in a virtual machine and grant access to any attached ide disks only. "Recommended" is still the recommendation as it supplies a minimum of apps alongside a system which has more guarantee of working on real modern hardware, though of course there are exceptions in the case of missing mass storage drivers. In any case, it is more likely to give access to modern disks etc. than what minimum will and so it is the recommendation.

Regards,
Galapo.

[pscEx]

This topic just reminded me to go to the Bootland downloads section and try to look at if from a first time visitors perspective.
Um! where is the Downloads Options for the Winbuilder.exe.
It seems we just list stuff for Winbuilder, but there is no mention of the Main program to use, which happens to be Winbuilder.

That's exactly what I tried yesterday.
And after finally finding WinBuilder.exe, I started and came into the download function.

Here I made my choice for LiveXP, saw the 'recommended' and thought "Recommended is ok". Why the developer should recommend this constellation, if it is not good for me newbie?


And I came into the 16 minutes build ...

Peter

[Lancelot]

@Galapo:

reminding my old suggestion (Midway) for this issue, "Minimum" button on interface (script project), but i dont know how to do or if it is available to override selected list of winbuilder with a prepared list.

[Galapo]

I guess that's what WBManager could be used for, although it would require the user to be using it.

[pscEx]

I'm having difficulty recalling any complaints about the building time of LiveXP recommended apart from Peter's, but can think of quite a few regarding missing mass storage drivers.

The question is not only some mass storage drivers.

Look e.g. at "Explorer Tweaks and Settings", "Other Tweaks", "Wallpapers" : The scripts are selected 'by Factory', and inside the scripts the options are predefined by the script developer.

But the options are not result of 'What The Usual User Needs', they tell the user "You need what I, the programmer, like"

Is there any FUNCTIONALITY missing if the user does not have a wallpaper?

If he urgently needs one he can add it in his second build(, knowing that every addon increases the build time).

Peter

[dera]

I guess that's what WBManager could be used for, although it would require the user to be using it.

Really,
why is not predefined settings (constellations) supplied for !WBManager?

[Galapo]

Look e.g. at "Explorer Tweaks and Settings", "Other Tweaks", "Wallpapers" : The scripts are selected 'by Factory', and inside the scripts the options are predefined by the script developer.

But those few scripts do not significantly increase the build time, so they're not exactly the issue. Sure, they're what the developer determines as appropriate, but everything selected or deselected is a choice. If "speed" and "core" is really the issue, why not offer cmd as shell and leave such "extras" like explorer as optional to be selected by the user if so desired? Well, because the developer makes a choice. Those three scripts as selected just another choice which the user can deselect if desired.

Mass storage drivers remain the issue which increase building time, the point which is at issue. Since the resultant PE is more likely to fail at modern hardware if they aren't included, the script is selected. In addition, as I've pointed out, I cannot remember complaints regarding building time of LiveXP recommended, but can regarding missing mass storage drivers. As such, the inclusion of these drivers I take it is more important (judging by complaints) than build time.

Regards,
Galapo.

[Lancelot]

I guess that's what WBManager could be used for, although it would require the user to be using it.

I guess it is different from what i ask and also:
Cannot create file "%BaseDir%\Temp\livexp\!WBManager\WBManager.exe". The process cannot access the file because it is being used by

I ask for a simpler thing at first like a predefined list to be read for build

//Selected=True list

Projects\LiveXP\Basic\!WBManager\!Fundamentals.Script

Projects\LiveXP\Basic\Build\1 - ProjectInfo.Script

Projects\LiveXP\Basic\Build\2 - MakeDirs.Script

Projects\LiveXP\Basic\Build\3 - hivesFactory.Script

Projects\LiveXP\Basic\Build\4 - BuildModel.Script

......

[pscEx]

Long time ago I already suggested a 'precompiled list' of scripts.
That is not only simpler, that is also much faster.

But nobody liked the idea and therefore I did not continue.

If you are interested, download nativeEx_PuzzleXP from the nativeEx server and have a look how it works.

Peter

[Lancelot]

Peter, thanks

i am downloading with winbuilder now for a look

[MedEvil]

The topic of build time is not only a problem for LiveXP, but all WB projects.
When i used for the first time, something like 3 months ago, BartPE i was simply blown away by the speed.
I started the build and went to the kitchen for a drink, expecting the build to take ages like a WB project, yet when i came back, the build was not only already done, but also the iso creation had already finished!
That's what i want for WB!

Will later post something about speed improovments in the WInbuilder Beta topic.

[Brito]

[quote name='Peter']Is there any FUNCTIONALITY missing if the user does not have a wallpaper?[/quote]

It takes less than a parsec to copy/extract the wallpaper to the target directory and the impact on the visual style is so impressive.

Maybe it's in my latin nature for choosing things based on a visual emotion more than what it can actually do, but I really think that if the first impression of the result is not impressive to the eyes, then the end-user won't be much interested to try anything further and that's what we'd be missing more than worrying exclusively on functionality and build time.

Bring on the eye-candy and sound support and we'll get happy users of a cool boot disk!

------------

+-->

I started the build and went to the kitchen for a drink, expecting the build to take ages like a WB project, yet when i came back, the build was not only already done, but also the iso creation had already finished![/quote]
But bartPE didn't added any SATA drivers, didn't added the explorer shell, didn't added tons of app scripts, didn't optimized the project files, etc, etc.

I'd recommend trying out UBCD4Win to get us a more fair comparing benchmark..

(thought I fully agree with MedEvil and would like to see a faster project build within 10~15 minutes with all bells&whistles! )

• Back to top

[pscEx]

Bring on the eye-candy and sound support and we'll get happy users of a cool boot disk!

Please allow me to tell you a secret:
There really exist people with a different opinion.

If I e.g. come into a site demanding flash player installed (I do not have it), I say "Bye, site"

Peter