486 replies to this topic

[Wonko the Sane]

How about posting your own results?

Because I have none, I don't use Windows 7, and I don't use Windows XP inside a .vhd, to me an XP RAW image is good enough, and since I use the latter on Qemu and my PC has not Audio I don't need to install video or audio drivers.

The issue (which will probably remain unresolved) is IMHO the following:

• a .vhd created by Wimb is giving him problems when installing Audio and Video drivers and he rates that method as "flaky"
• a .vhd created by you it is apparently not (but you didn't specify about installing Audio and Video drivers)

It's basically a problem between you two, I am simply interested to the result of the commands you posted to understand what the actual result is in the MBR partition table.

It is possible that also different levels of the actual XP SP may make a difference, or the answer is simply blowing in the wind, just like the UNresolved difference between Wimb and myself in the mentioned thread:
http://reboot.pro/9897/page__st__60


Wonko

[sambul61]

Can someone post a download link for Beeblebrox 1.0 or newer version, or upload it (not an older one)? What partition table viewers can work with VHDs?

Here's a 2Gb VHD formatted by the above sequence in WinPE 3.0 - settings are tuned for selected disk and cluster sizes as per The Default Cluster Size for the NTFS and FAT File Systems.

Compare VHDs formatted by the above rooting...



versus Win7 Disk Management...



As to installing Video and Audio drivers, they install and work fine in WinXP VHD. I don't have any problems with wimb either.

[Wonko the Sane]

The "only" version of beeblebrox can be found here:
http://www.msfn.org/...s-mbr/page_st_5
But Clonedisk:
http://reboot.pro/8480/
Or PTview for tinyhexer:
http://reboot.pro/8734/
are also good, as well as the Powerquest utility you used.

What partition table viewers can work with VHDs?

Since "fixed" VHD's are nothing but RAW images with a footer appended to them, *any* partition table viewer will work, either with the mounted or the offline VHD (if they are designed to acces the disk, an image file or both).
Other types of VHD may use different format /differencing VHD's) If I recall correctly Dynamic ones have also the "standard" MBR allright.

As expected the start is on sector 64 and there is no alignment to cylinder boundary.
So, while it is well possible that that partition scheme works allright for XP on VHD, it is actually NOT "XP compatible" in the sense "same as if the disk was partitioned on a XP System".

If you could try using Disk Management and the proposed Registry settings, you should be able to see the difference.

Let's see what Wimb has to report, if he can test your settings, etc. maybe the "start on 64/align to 4Kb" is the "right" setting (though still not "native XP like").



Wonko

[sambul61]

Because I have none, I don't use Windows 7

You can still use WinPE 3.0 to create and format a VHD as proposed, copy it to a larger IMG file, and then proceed with WinXP install to it inside QEMU for testing (WinXP.vhd, WinVBlock.ima, WinXP Setup ISO, G4D on IMG disk). Easy to do in QEMU & WinXP & Commodore - the best config... Or install WHDMount to WinXP and use it instead of WinPE 3.0 to experiment with VHDs - just try above format setting instead of default.

Consider trying ThinPC7 VHD - it boots natively, so the only thing left is to chainload Bootmgr from Grub4DOS. That way you may help more readers of this forum in questions they currently face (not just from remote past). We do need your feedback.

As to the offset value, its "the best" latest Diskpart can do for old OSs, and in my tests it works great. MS abandoned old formatting scheme long ago for serious reasons. So its gone, forgotten... But if someone prefers it or faces problems, just format a new VHD inside Virtual PC 2007, or mount it inside WinXP with VHDMount and format there to see this pic (hopefully close to your ideal):

[wimb]

As expected the start is on sector 64 and there is no alignment to cylinder boundary.
So, while it is well possible that that partition scheme works allright for XP on VHD, it is actually NOT "XP compatible" in the sense "same as if the disk was partitioned on a XP System".

Thanks Wonko the Sane for your detailed analysis.
The partitioning of the VHD of sambul61 is indeed NOT as if it was partitioned on a XP System.
The number of reserved sectors is 64 and the partition is not ending at all on cylinder boundary.
Thanks sambul61 for showing pictures of Partition Guru and Partition Table Editor.

I think I used portable Win 7PE as made by Make_PE3.exe to create the VHD.
In that case the partitioning of the VHD is exact as the HD partitioning done with XP System.
The number of reserved sectors is then 63 and the partition is ending on cylinder boundary, but has extra footer sector appended for VHD description.

It would be interesting if other members of this forum like cdob or ilko or Doodoo can report about their experience with Direct Install of XP in VHD
and can tell about possible problems related to install of Audio and Video driver in the XP VHD.
We need more reports about possible success or failure for direct install of XP in VHD.

[Wonko the Sane]

A semi-random idea .

Any image made with the 64 sectors/4Kb alignment is sized n bytes where obviously n=32768+m*4096+512 or, in sectors, n=64+m*8+1 i.e. a number from which, once you have subtracted 1, will result diivisible by 8, i.e. n-1=8*(8+m)

Would it be possible that *somehow* the involved drivers/whatever check this size being a correct multiple?

If this is the case one could use a 63 sectors/cylinder aligned image that is compatible with this scheme.

Since the cylinder is 255*63=16065 sectors, and the the "hidden sectors" are 63 a number of sizes would be compatible, as examples:

• around 1 Gb: 1.061.093.888 = sectors 63+129*16065+1=64+ 2072384+1
• around 2 Gb: 2.179.731.968 = sectors 63+265*16065+1=64+ 4257224+1
• around 3 Gb: 3.232.567.808 = sectors 63+393*16065+1=64+ 6313544+1
• around 4 Gb: 4.351.205.888= sectors 63+529*16065+1=64+ 8498384+1

Wonko

[sambul61]

Well, its possible to closer align the partition to cylinder boundary by extending the offset, but in my tests it wasn't necessary, and wouldn't make it "XP native" anyway or improve performance of such a small disk. If you want to post your own test results, please do it in this Sara-pmedia's or wimb's IMG_XP thread, unless you exactly followed my Tutorial and used driver & other tool versions suggested in it.

[wimb]

The file Make_PE3PE3_modPE3_addx86WindowsSystem32PE3_CUSTOM.reg contains registry tweak:

; Partitioning with 63 Hidden Sectors like used in XP - Alignment 7e00 = 63 * 512 bytes

 

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINESYSTEMControlSet001servicesvdsAlignment]

@="Alignment Settings in Bytes"

"Between4_8GB"=dword:00007e00

"Between8_32GB"=dword:00007e00

"GreaterThan32GB"=dword:00007e00

"LessThan4GB"=dword:00007e00

 

Using Disk Management in 7 PE will give then XP Style partitioning.

[sambul61]

So you suggest to modify WinPE 3.0 Boot.wim Registry before installing WinXP? What's the benefit of this approach, keeping in mind that:

- proposed format sequence permits normal OS install and performance without such mod
- when install starts, a user is able to reformat the VHD natively by WinXP Setup, as shown in my report

Its possible however... But then you can't format to Vista & Win7 style with the same PE. Not everything depends on disk formatting though, various drivers and apps can give plenty of headache too, since some never gone through a sound quality assurance process (like FiraDisk and WinVBlock).

[Wonko the Sane]

Well, settings as:
http://www.911cd.net...pic=21186&st=18

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINESYSTEMControlSet001servicesvdsAlignment]
"LessThan4GB"=dword:00000000
"Between4_8GB"=dword:00000000
"Between8_32GB"=dword:00000000
"GreaterThan32GB"=dword:00000000

should give you the SAME result:
http://web.archive.o...kb/931760/en-us

though of course the 00007e00 reference is a good idea to remember what it is about.


Wonko

[wimb]

Values of 0 for vdsAlignment give an unexpected result for you !
In that case the number of hidden sectors is 16065 corresponding to CHS 1/0/1

If you want XP style of Alignment with 63 hidden sectors, then you need the setting 00007e00

[wimb]

So you suggest to modify WinPE 3.0 Boot.wim Registry before installing WinXP?

No.
I suggest you to apply such registry tweak in running 7 PE or WinPE 3.0 environment,
so that you are able to use Win7 Disk Management for Creating VHD file with XP style of Alignment,
and that you can use then for Install of XP in VHD.

Reformat will not change the partitioning. It will just format the existing partition.

You can apply in 7 PE a registry tweak with the original Win7 settings for vdsAlignment
if you want in some other case have alignment according to Windows 7.
In that case you have 128 hidden sectors for files LessThan 4 GB and otherwise 2048 hidden sectors.

[cdob]

Using Disk Management in 7 PE will give then XP Style partitioning.

Yes, that's correct.

Contrary I like 4kb align at 4kb sectors hardware.
Most current hard disks uses 4kb sectors internally. And 4kb align is nice at a SSD.

XP SP3 installs fine at a 4kb aligned hard disk.

[sambul61]

wimb

Its possible to do it your way too - thanks. Though we seems to concentrate on VHD formatting too much, when other issues might influence WinXP OS running stability from VHD, which makes sense to investigate too... For example, why Sara said that VHDs created in Virtual PC 2007 work without issues with WinVBlock, while some say VHDs created in Win7 aren't always? Setting aside different possible WinVBlock versions (I noticed, the depositories now contain older unstable versions under the last version number), may be these VHDs Header / Footer structure is somewhat different? Anyone can check this (not just claim what someone else said, but actually check it)?

Another question is, why WinXP backup applied to a VHD created in Win7 doesn't show any issues, while the VHD with WinXP installed by legacy method from ISO may show driver stability issues with the same WinVBlock version - especially in VMs?

[Wonko the Sane]

Values of 0 for vdsAlignment give an unexpected result for you !
In that case the number of hidden sectors is 16065 corresponding to CHS 1/0/1

If you want XP style of Alignment with 63 hidden sectors, then you need the setting 00007e00

Would that mean that as usual MS lied or misrepresented the issue or that there has been a not-so-slight change between Vista and 7 (please read a PE 2.x vs. PE 3.x)?
1/0/1 is however "XP compatible", in the sense that this is where a second partition, with the first partition being 0/0/1÷0/254/63 LBA63/16002 would start, you just loose 8.193.024 bytes of available space.

@sambul61
Yep, that is exactly the idea.
But until effects/behaviour are not reproducible AND reproduced by "both parties" (and possibly by a third one), we cannot exclude anything...


Wonko

[sambul61]

But until effects/behaviour are not reproducible AND reproduced by "both parties" (and possibly by a third one), we cannot exclude anything...

Are you going to join us in these "effects reproduction" (hint - "a third one")? This is a classic XP case, where everyone relies heavily on your expertise and...especially your test results. And its about disks not working properly - virtual or else - again your field of interest...

Who said the effects aren't reproducible - unless you try?

[wimb]

Direct Install of XP in VHD is now working OK for me.

I did it several times with VHD's of 1.6 GB and having either 63 or 128 hidden sectors for testing effect of alignment.
Now Install of XP in all VHD's is running well and I had no problems with Install of Audio and Video driver.
I don't know what is the cause for my problems about 1 year ago, but anyway everything is working OK for me now.

[sambul61]

Congrats on your success!

What do you mean under "direct install" - what sequence? Do you use WinVBlock or FiraDisk or ImDisk+another driver for installing (using what Setup media?) and running WinXP 32-bit from a fixed VHD created with WinPE 3.0? What's the version number & CRC of the driver and its package components needed for its install? Any driver installation & stability issues upon reboot & running apps like Win Device Manager, especially inside VMs? Does it require to manually finalize the driver components install upon OS 1st reboot from VHD?

[wimb]

For direct Install of XP in VHD on HDD drive (having BOOTMGR-type Bootsector),
I have used the three given boot options in grub4dos menu.

VHD file XP-3.vhd was Created in root of HDD by using Win7 Disk Management in 32-bits 7 PE or in Win7 environment
7 PE will give 63 hidden sectors and Win7 gives 128 hidden sectors for the created fixed VHD of 1640 MB size
The VHD was initiated and then the partition was quick formatted with NTFS and compression and 4096 bytes / cluster
BootSect.exe was used to get VHD drive V: with NTLDR-type bootsector and XP-type MBR according to

BootSect.exe /nt52 V: /force /mbr

Instead of using BootSect.exe you can use XP OS to format with NTFS and compression your VHD after mounting VHD as ImDisk Virtual drive.
This can be useful if you want to do XP Setup again on the same VHD after reformat.
Don't use format inside XP Setup, just keep format as it is.

winvblock.ima (from IMG_XP package) and XP3_1110.iso were copied to root of HDD boot drive

grldr and grldr.mbr in HDD root (grub4dos installed in BCD BootManager menu with BOOT_IMG.exe from IMG_XP package)
- entries in menu.lst as used:

title Continue GUI-mode - XP Setup on XP-3.vhd - WinVBlock driver

map --mem /winvblock.ima (fd1)

map --mem /winvblock.ima (fd0)

map /XP-3.vhd (hd0)

map --mem /XP3_1110.iso (0xff)

map --hook

root (hd0,0)

chainloader /ntldr



title Start -  TXT-mode XP Setup on XP-3.vhd - WinVBlock driver

map --mem /winvblock.ima (fd1)

map --mem /winvblock.ima (fd0)

map /XP-3.vhd (hd0)

map --mem /XP3_1110.iso (0xff)

map --hook

chainloader (0xff)



title Boot XP from VHD Image - XP-3.vhd - WinVBlock driver

find --set-root --ignore-floppies /XP-3.vhd

map /XP-3.vhd (hd0)

map --rd-size=2048

map --mem (rd)+4 (0x55)

map --hook

write (0x55) #!GRUB4DOSx00v=1x00XP-3.vhdx00x80x00

root (hd0,0)

chainloader /ntldr

AFAIK nothing special I think .....

Finally work for me! (maybe for you too...)

All drivers were auto installed during GUI-mode of XP Setup
For preparing XP3_1110.iso look in Section 2 of
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=23553



EDIT 12 jan 2012

The --mem option for XP3_1110.iso can be omitted, which saves time.
In that case the ISO is not copied to memory, but the ISO must be contiguous (unfragmented)

More Info on direct Install of XP by using grub4dos menu and WinVBlock or FiraDisk driver:
cdob - Install XP from a ISO file No RAM disk - http://www.msfn.org/...rom-a-iso-file/
Doodoo - http://reboot.pro/13...385#entry122385
sara - pnedia - http://reboot.pro/13731/
wimb - http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=23553
karyonix - http://reboot.pro/88...737#entry121737
karyonix - http://reboot.pro/13967/

[Wonko the Sane]

Direct Install of XP in VHD is now working OK for me.

I did it several times with VHD's of 1.6 GB and having either 63 or 128 hidden sectors for testing effect of alignment.
Now Install of XP in all VHD's is running well and I had no problems with Install of Audio and Video driver.
I don't know what is the cause for my problems about 1 year ago, but anyway everything is working OK for me now.

Congrats on your success!

Congrats, my sock!
Shame on wimb for:

• not having timely troubleshot the issues
• having cried wolf unneeededly

Wonko

[sambul61]

Congrats, my sock!
Shame on wimb

"A sock is an item of clothing worn on the feet." Are you in need of more such items? Just a reminder: this is not a donations thread...



I might have some spare socks though... if you like the color:

[cdob]

Direct Install of XP in VHD is now working OK for me.

That's good news. Haven't tried this in years, had been at firadisk back then.

At winvblock 0.0.1.8 I get still
Unknown device #119 http://reboot.pro/98...post__p__122080 and
PFN_LIST_CORRUPT #366 http://reboot.pro/13...post__p__133579

Default txtsetup.oem and WinVBlk.INF changed

[WinVBlockDriver]

"WinVBlock Bus"=WinVBlock,Root\WinVBlock, Detected\WinVBlock

"WinVBlock Bus WVBlk32"=WVBlk32,DETECTEDInternal\WVBlk32, Detected\WVBlk32



[WVBlk32]

CopyFiles=Files.Driver,Files.Tools

AddReg=DisablePrefetcher



[DisablePrefetcher]

HKLM,"System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Memory Management\PrefetchParameters",EnablePrefetcher,0x00010001,0x0

HKLM,"System\CurrentControlSet\Control\CrashControl",AutoReboot,0x00010001,0x0



[WVBlk32.Services]

AddService=WVBlk32,0x00000002,Service



[Files.Driver]

wvblk32.sys

Be aware, this breaks .cat signing.

PNP does install WinVBlk.INF and no more PFN_LIST_CORRUPT.

[sambul61]

In the Tutorial and tests I use WinVBlock 0.0.1.8 version, supplied with wimb's IMG_XP package. There might be typos in its INF though. I also noticed that in both linked in WinVBlock threads depositories older driver versions are now posted as v. 0.0.1.8, and they are also different. Not sure, what Sha0 meant to induce by this.

After 1st reboot WinXP disk is loaded by WinVBlock, and if one opens Device Management and finishes install (points to INF), it works OK. At times its harder to finalize install inside a VM than on real HW. If not finalized, next reboot from VHD one would face BSOD 0x7B. Its still possible to install the driver after that by booting the VHD in Safe Mode in a VM attached as IDE disk, uninstalling and then manually re-installing WinVBlock by setting up and starting its service in Console. It might be a headache though (if not nightmare...).

[sambul61]

I prefer to prepare my XP Install on real partition and then manually add WinVBlock driver.
Everything works then OK and I can use IMX_XP_Create.exe to make XP Image file,
that I can boot from grub4dos menu on HDD or USB as WinVBlock FILEDISK or as WinVBlock RAMDISK
or Restore to any partition without problem.

I have to agree, this method of installing WinVBlock is more robust, while installing it to an image file may show some problems. I prefer it too, otherwise install from ISO to VHD goes without a glitch. WinVBlock needs further bug fixing, but it seems to be a promising driver.

Default txtsetup.oem and WinVBlk.INF changed...

PNP does install WinVBlk.INF and no more PFN_LIST_CORRUPT.

Are you suggesting to replace entire content of WinVBlk.INF and txtsetup.oem with your code, or amend their present content with it? For what driver version: 0.0.1.8-Dev from Etherboot depository, or 0.0.1.8 from wimb's IMG_XP? What are the consequences of breaking .cat signing?

Still isn't clear why Prefetcher must be disabled for VHD only, but it shouldn't be when installing WinVBlock to HD? And once WinVBlock is prefetched (manually?), is it possible to enable the Prefetcher again?

Do you recommend exact same change for Win7 install to VHD? I have OS (WES7 & ThinPC) stability problems in VPC & VMWare after installing WinVBlock 0.0.1.8 with current unchanged INF. Will your fix work for both 32-and-64 bit versions?

[Wonko the Sane]

"A sock is an item of clothing worn on the feet." Are you in need of more such items? Just a reminder: this is not a donations thread...


I might have some spare socks though... if you like the color:

...and they usually come in pairs, judging from the images you posted, you have been recently visited by little green men .... (unless you have a wooden leg )

BTW, I know a man with a wooden leg called Smith.... http://www.imdb.com/...es?qt=qt1045247


Wonko